Planning underway for new commuter ferry between Bedford and Halifax

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

I quite like this ferry as an option:
https://www.austal.com/news/austal-l...-speed-ferries

May be too large though, 400 passengers is quite a bit, not sure how much they cost either.

They quote the range has being 175NM "per day" I would assume this is not on a single charge and instead with rest periods while it's stopped?

A nice looking ship!

So, if it gets 175 nm "per day", that would likely be 5-6 round trips between Mill Cove and the downtown ferry terminal. How many ferries do you think they will put on this service? I would think you would need a minimum of two ferries to make the service viable (in terms of both frequency and capacity).

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A nice looking ship!

So, if it gets 175 nm "per day", that would likely be 5-6 round trips between Mill Cove and the downtown ferry terminal. How many ferries do you think they will put on this service? I would think you would need a minimum of two ferries to make the service viable (in terms of both frequency and capacity).

According to google Earth it's about 10KM in a straight line to the ferry terminal.

175NM = 318KM

Lets say with headwinds, route etc 1 way = 12KM

We're looking at 26 one way trips with the ferry or 13 round trips.

2 ferries could make it so that they could leave every half hour.

Big unknown about these ferries though is what the capacity on a single charge is. The whole "Day range of..." Sounds like marketing speak for that it will need to be charged throughout the day to achieve that number. The wait for it to be charged to a good level is the unknown.

Also price, I mean if these are 3-4x as expensive as a comparable conventional ferry then it wouldn't make sense.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In which case the "fast" ferry may occasionally be not quite so fast, and could arrive at the downtown ferry terminal 15-20 minutes late or so. Downtown office managers had better be a forgiving lot.

There's no reason to think that a large commercial vessel and a commuter ferry couldn't pass each other in the Narrows in the first place.

But even if - for whatever reason we could imagine - the ferry had to yield the ROW to another vessel there or in the Basin or anywhere else in the harbor, it wouldn't create a delay of anything like "15-20 minutes". More like a minute, and likely much less.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

But even if - for whatever reason we could imagine - the ferry had to yield the ROW to another vessel there or in the Basin or anywhere else in the harbor, it wouldn't create a delay of anything like "15-20 minutes". More like a minute, and likely much less.

I think in practice delays due to yielding would potentially be worse for commuter rail. Generally speaking, in Canada, when passenger rail shares track with freight and there's some scheduling hiccup the passenger rail yields. The freight trains can take a lot time. CN does not want any commuter rail on their line. I doubt they will give it priority in the near future.

If there were a dedicated rail ROW from downtown to Bedford it would be a no-brainer to implement commuter rail service. But it's a shared freight line to the South End.

[Good Baklava]

I know wireless charging is increasingly common on bus stations, it could be a convenient way of juicing it up a little while loading passengers.

Evolving technology could easily change this, but I imagine the idea of an electric ferry faces the threat of going down a similar route as the electric busses.

[bluenoser]

Aging Halifax ferry terminal to be rebuilt to accommodate proposed electric ferries
Reconstructed terminal would be twice the size, says councillor
Gareth Hampshire · CBC News · Posted: Jun 22, 2021 2:36 PM AT | Last Updated: June 23


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...zero-1.6075087

[Dmajackson]

Non-binding requests for proposals have gone out for two portions of this project.

1) Transit technology for the ferries

2) Conceptual design for the new Mill Cove Terminal and rebuild or expansion of the Halifax Terminal.

I was on the Bedford wharf last weekend. This site is listed as the location set aside for the Mill Cove Terminal.


Halifax Developments Blog (Photo by David Jackson)

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Good Question, as the cost of having a fully experienced master mariner on a fast ferry would no doubt raise the cost to run a ferry through the roof.

Then again our Fed Liberals just may come up with a plan to retire or move the Basin container berths to a refurbished Imperial Oil site. That would lead to no restrictions for the Marco Polo class Container ships to finally shut down Montreal.
Naw, what was I thinking, Liberals will think they have already given Halifax the shipbuilding contract that has absolutely transformed Halifax and will for another twenty years.

Moving the container terminal to the old imperial oil site is a fantastic idea. Other than cost, I see zero reasons not to get started on this ASAP.

[Keith P.]

So the planning for this has gone through Council who chose the $218 million (which you know is at least $300 million) option. From the Herald:

"Two years ago, a feasibility study pegged a ferry service at Mill Cove at $120 million. But after securing over $3 million in funding last year to hammer out the finer details, the estimate went up to $288 million.

“My first reaction is, this is exciting, this is moving along, but my second reaction is like everybody else, which is probably sticker shock,” said Coun. Tim Outhit (Bedford-Wentworth).

To lighten the blow a little, on Tuesday staff proposed two lower-cost options: reduced ($215 million) and do-minimum ($169 million). Council voted to champion the reduced option and now will wait to see what the federal and provincial governments kick in.

Dave Reage, executive director of Halifax Transit, said they’re applying through the federal Investing in Canada Infrastructure Program and expect the feds will come up with 40 per cent, while the province usually provides up to 33 per cent. He said if the province doesn’t contribute a full 33 per cent, HRM would have to pay the difference.

Outhit said it needed to be clear that if the other levels of government don’t contribute what they should, the HRM will have to make a decision.

Coun. Lisa Blackburn (Middle/Upper Sackville – Beaver Bank – Lucasville) said the reduced case is a good compromise.

“We’re not buying the Porsche, we’re not getting the Kia, we’re getting the Audi. And I think that is a fair and responsible path to take,” she said.

“This allows us to use our natural assets, our harbour, and really concentrate on using that for transportation purposes.”

Both Outhit and Coun. Waye Mason (Halifax South Downtown) said this is a good deal compared to what other cities pay for commuter rail.

“We know we’re going to grow and if we’re going to grow, we know we’re going to need something like this. We need to make these kinds of investments,” Mason said.

Plus, Outhit reminded councillors that they’ve thoroughly exhausted rail options and threw them out because it wouldn’t work, or would be far too expensive.

“And keep in mind the costs now of adding lanes, adding buses, converting buses, etc.” Outhit said.

“I’m not for a minute going to tell anyone here this isn’t a lot of money, but I am going to tell you that none of the other options we’ve looked at are any less expensive and the status quo is not acceptable if we want to continue growing in a somewhat green way.”

Patricia Hughes, director of planning and customer engagement for Halifax Transit, said the vessels they’re looking at are being tested as prototypes in Norway. The six electric ferries would accommodate 150 people and require “significant on-shore charging.” Part of that hefty price tag will include rebuilding the Halifax terminal to add a new berth for the electric ferries.

https://www.saltwire.com/halifax/new...ion-100778359/

[OldDartmouthMark]

Dmajackson posted a link to the full report in the transit thread: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=2010

This is great news to hear that it is moving forward. The city needs to provide more and better transit options than just adding more buses and bus-only lanes. Cycling infrastructure is nice but it doesn't truly increase commuting capacity by a great deal, in practical terms. Our street network is a limited resource and there's only so much capacity, especially now that they are cutting lanes in some areas. The harbour is like a free roadway and we only have to pay for the vehicles to run on it and the terminals to accommodate them. No dodgy agreements with CN rail required, either.

The above is only my opinion, and so is the fact that I'm quite looking forward to this new service coming in. Sure, it's a lot of money, but it sounds like they are planning for the future by building in extra capacity (and building to a higher grade in anticipation of rising sea levels). The city is growing, and taking advantage of the natural situation (the harbour) that most other cities don't have can't be anything but a good idea.

Bring it on... I'm happy to see them spending money on a method of transportation that actually will move a lot of people around 12 months of the year. I'm all in on this.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

that they’ve thoroughly exhausted rail options and threw them out because it wouldn’t work, or would be far too expensive.


I doubt that the above is true.

I am hoping for success for this project given that we're about to spend a ton of money on it but I can't help but think that having no parking structure is a handicap. Also, given that Mill Cove may become a major link/origin point of our transit system, will we see building height allowance and density increases in the immediate area?

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

I am hoping for success for this project given that we're about to spend a ton of money on it but I can't help but think that having no parking structure is a handicap. Also, given that Mill Cove may become a major link/origin point of our transit system, will we see building height allowance and density increases in the immediate area?

I think the parking structure is a good place to cut initial costs; it's a pretty self-contained piece of infrastructure so can be added later.

And yeah, hopefully when the Suburban Plan happens there's a big push to densify this area of Bedford, plus make really good connections to the existing density on places like Larry Uteck.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

that they’ve thoroughly exhausted rail options and threw them out because it wouldn’t work, or would be far too expensive.

I doubt that the above is true.

I don't believe either statement is true. When council killed the commuter rail concept in 2019, after toying with it for several years, they cited failure to come to terms with CN as the stumbling block.

It's no secret that CN would prefer to be rid of troublesome human cargo on its tracks. But something like 37 per cent of GO transit operations in metro Toronto are on CN and CP lines and a significant part of Montreal area commuter trains are on CN and CP track. Metra rail in the Chicago area operates on the tracks of several railroads, CN included. Most Via long-distance and regional trains are also on CN tracks and Amtrak trains are on CN lines in the US and Canada.

While some councillors (like Tim Outhit) were supporters of rail, HRM staff never supported the option. I doubt that Halifax ever seriously negotiated with CN with any strength. Consider, for example, that in Illinois, CN will carry Metra commuter trains on an expanded section of its network in exchange for local municipal council support for its double-tracking plan.

So we now propose to go forward with the ferry proposal. I hope my skepticism is misplaced and such a service can succeed. But there is no denying that commuter rail has a significant advantage over the marine service. It has the potential to serve far more people. As a general rule, commuter rail operations in North America have been well accepted and used, often greatly surpassing ridership projections. The rail corridor parallels our most congested road routes, directly serving our fastest growing neighbourhoods. Allowing passengers to board in Windsor Junction, Bedford, Rockingham and Armdale offers far more potential for access and growth than the marine option ever will. In my opinion.

[MonctonRad]

Good post. Agree 100%

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

While some councillors (like Tim Outhit) were supporters of rail, HRM staff never supported the option. I doubt that Halifax ever seriously negotiated with CN with any strength. Consider, for example, that in Illinois, CN will carry Metra commuter trains on an expanded section of its network in exchange for local municipal council support for its double-tracking plan.

So we now propose to go forward with the ferry proposal. I hope my skepticism is misplaced and such a service can succeed. But there is no denying that commuter rail has a significant advantage over the marine service. It has the potential to serve far more people. As a general rule, commuter rail operations in North America have been well accepted and used, often greatly surpassing ridership projections. The rail corridor parallels our most congested road routes, directly serving our fastest growing neighbourhoods. Allowing passengers to board in Windsor Junction, Bedford, Rockingham and Armdale offers far more potential for access and growth than the marine option ever will. In my opinion.

I fully agree. Just the fact that the ferry proposal includes no parking at the terminal tells us that it will not be moving a significant number of people, not that ferries ever do anyway. A rail-based or rail ROW-based service would be far more appealing to many with multiple points of boarding and disembarking. Halifax Transit cannot run any service well or reliably and I expect this will be more of the same.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I fully agree. Just the fact that the ferry proposal includes no parking at the terminal tells

It has parking at the terminal, they've just switched out the expensive parking garage for a cheaper surface lot.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

It has parking at the terminal, they've just switched out the expensive parking garage for a cheaper surface lot.

The Province is about to dismantle the parking garage at the QEII. One would think HRM would be interested in acquiring those components for this, even if they just store them on the nearby St Pats lands for a few years since it seems that will never get developed in our lifetimes.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

It has parking at the terminal, they've just switched out the expensive parking garage for a cheaper surface lot.

Indeed, this is true. But, and I ask this genuine interest, does anyone think that there is appeal in parking on the far side of a surface lot on a slushy day, bitter cold day, hot sunny day, etc., enough that would convince them to pay $5.00 on a ferry ride rather than put that $ towards parking underground at or very near their work location? Being too frugal can be a recipe for failure.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Indeed, this is true. But, and I ask this genuine interest, does anyone think that there is appeal in parking on the far side of a surface lot on a slushy day, bitter cold day, hot sunny day, etc., enough that would convince them to pay $5.00 on a ferry ride rather than put that $ towards parking underground at or very near their work location? Being too frugal can be a recipe for failure.

The Woodside ferry terminal has a big surface lot that seems to be well-used by commuters who park there and ferry over to Halifax.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer if the parking was structured. But I'll take a surface lot (that can be later turned into structured parking) over any more delays in getting higher order transit in this city.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I don't believe either statement is true. When council killed the commuter rail concept in 2019, after toying with it for several years, they cited failure to come to terms with CN as the stumbling block.

It's no secret that CN would prefer to be rid of troublesome human cargo on its tracks. But something like 37 per cent of GO transit operations in metro Toronto are on CN and CP lines and a significant part of Montreal area commuter trains are on CN and CP track. Metra rail in the Chicago area operates on the tracks of several railroads, CN included. Most Via long-distance and regional trains are also on CN tracks and Amtrak trains are on CN lines in the US and Canada.

While some councillors (like Tim Outhit) were supporters of rail, HRM staff never supported the option. I doubt that Halifax ever seriously negotiated with CN with any strength. Consider, for example, that in Illinois, CN will carry Metra commuter trains on an expanded section of its network in exchange for local municipal council support for its double-tracking plan.

So we now propose to go forward with the ferry proposal. I hope my skepticism is misplaced and such a service can succeed. But there is no denying that commuter rail has a significant advantage over the marine service. It has the potential to serve far more people. As a general rule, commuter rail operations in North America have been well accepted and used, often greatly surpassing ridership projections. The rail corridor parallels our most congested road routes, directly serving our fastest growing neighbourhoods. Allowing passengers to board in Windsor Junction, Bedford, Rockingham and Armdale offers far more potential for access and growth than the marine option ever will. In my opinion.

I have to agree, and I was super-stoked when HRM seemed to be seriously considering commuter rail a few years back. For whatever reason, disappointingly they couldn't seem to hammer out an agreement with CN. Can't speak to the reason, though based upon other observations, 'not trying hard enough' would not be out of the question.

That said, time is ticking, the city is growing, so something needs to be done before we are caught in perpetual gridlock. The city is investing a lot of time and energy into "active transportation", which is fine, but I don't practically see it moving massive amounts of people on a daily commute the way that a good transit system does.

However, we do have an untapped resource in the harbour, so I support taking steps to use it so we are not left with relying on buses and active transport as our only alternative to driving in 10 years time. AFAIK, CN has no plan to remove the tracks through Halifax, so commuter rail could be still be kept on the table as a future possibility. When you think about it, the ferry system and commuter rail could be run in parallel, as the ferry would let out in the heart of downtown, and rail would be let out at the CN station, presumably.

IMHO, Halifax is so far behind in transit development, that the idea of depending upon buses and bicycles as our only transit options for the future makes my head want to explode...