The future: enclavism or the melting pot?

[Segun]

Originally Posted by Camelback

It's not offensive, but it is ignorance that's teetering on racism on your part.

So. I already said I can count on one hand the amount of White friends I have, despite the fact I live in a majority White area, and I don't consider myself a part of White culture, despite the fact I live in a majority White area. Maybe you should read "Invisible Man" by Ralph Ellison to understand why. Ignorance! Yes sir! Willfull ignorance? Yes sir! Willfull ignorance based upon a valid reason? Yes sir! Don't get mad at the result of the mess America has made. My thinking is a product of this country. I could always lie to make myself sound good, but why? I enjoy Movies, Comics, Roller Coasters, European based Architecture, so there's some aspects of White culture I like, but it's surface level. I consider myself outside the circle. I don't fraternize, build relationships, bond, or seek counsel from White people. It isn't even really on purpose, it's just the way things happen to have worked out, something that has come to my attention as of recent. This is just the facts.

I remember being in college when I was President of the Black Student Union, we were sitting at our promo table like we always do. Someone made a passing remark (not to us, which was a big problem in of itself), along the lines of "Why do they always sit by themselves, how come they never come to our table" Yet did they stop to think that the problem lies in them not coming to our table?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Segun

So. I already said I can count on one hand the amount of White friends I have, despite the fact I live in a majority White area, and I don't consider myself a part of White culture, despite the fact I live in a majority White area. Maybe you should read "Invisible Man" by Ralph Ellison to understand why. Ignorance! Yes sir! Willfull ignorance? Yes sir! Willfull ignorance based upon a valid reason? Yes sir! Don't get mad at the result of the mess America has made. My thinking is a product of this country. I could always lie to make myself sound good, but why? I enjoy Movies, Comics, Roller Coasters, European based Architecture, so there's some aspects of White culture I like, but it's surface level. I consider myself outside the circle. I don't fraternize, build relationships, or seek counsel from White people. It isn't even really on purpose, it's just the way things happen to have worked out, something that has come to my attention as of recent. This is just the facts.

I remember being in college when I was President of the Black Student Union, we were sitting at our promo table like we always do. Someone made a passing remark (not to us, which was a big problem in of itself), along the lines of "Why do they always sit by themselves, how come they never come to our table" Yet did they stop to think that the problem lies in them not coming to our table?

As much we'd would like to claim otherwise, most people (black, white, blue, green, gay, straight, etc) gravitate towards those that are most like them. Human nature I guess. I don't like it but it is what it is. I went to highly diverse schools as a kid and even then, kids quickly socialized based on identity. There's way too much emphasis on our differences than similarities.

[Segun]

Originally Posted by JManc

As much we'd would like to claim otherwise, most people (black, white, blue, green, gay, straight, etc) gravitate towards those that are most like them. Human nature I guess. I don't like it but it is what it is. I went to highly diverse schools as a kid and even then, kids quickly socialized based on identity. There's way too much emphasis on our differences than similarities.

Cultures should thrive on their own, untouched to where they can feel pride on their own terms, and be their own authority. The most serendipitous interactions occur when people from different cultures feel as if that different culture has an equivalent or a counterpart. That sharing of knowledge and recognition is bonding point that brings people from different walks of life together. If a culture isn't given that chance to shine on it's own terms, it's not going to mix well with other cultures. I believe in the philosophy of letting people be in their in-group, and when they decide to step out, they'll step out, don't force it.

[craigs]

Well, I'll bet the guy who is couching, in a cloak of so-called "pan-enclavism," his argument for the establishment of autonomous conservative white homelands didn't expect to be embraced by a a guy arguing for autonomous black enclaves!

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Segun

Cultures should thrive on their own, untouched to where they can feel pride on their own terms, and be their own authority. The most serendipitous interactions occur when people from different cultures feel as if that different culture has an equivalent or a counterpart. That sharing of knowledge and recognition is bonding point that brings people from different walks of life together. If a culture isn't given that chance to shine on it's own terms, it's not going to mix well with other cultures. I believe in the philosophy of letting people be in their in-group, and when they decide to step out, they'll step out, don't force it.

Seems worth mentioning here although our media loves the theoretical idea of people across all different races socializing freely so much that it's being added to historical dramas about the middle ages...it's transitory wherever it has been successful. This is because wherever people freely intermix without sticking to their own culture/background everyone intermarries, and is more or less the same within a couple of generations.

I mean, one way you can see this is the history of black people in the UK versus the U.S. The UK did not historically have a large black population until mass migration from the Caribbean starting in the 1960s. While certainly Caribbean migrants faced racism, it wasn't anywhere near blacks in the U.S. (other groups, like Pakistanis and Romani, tend to be more the bottom of the totem pole in the UK). Most Anglo-Caribbean migrants married outside of the community, which means there are more people of mixed white/Anglo-Caribbean ancestry in the UK today than those of full blood, with most black people more recent African migrants. This same dynamic has happened in the UK multiple times before, with lots of people in Britain having a few percentage points of DNA from African or South Asian sources, because earlier streams of migration just blended into the white population.

Or hell, look at a U.S. example...Jews. Once it no longer became scandalous for Jews and Gentiles to marry in the mid 20th century, the outmarriage rate for Jews exceeded 50%. In another few generations, there will be very few American Jews left other than those from Hasidic and other Ultra-Orthodox communities.

So, this is the tension. If you could somehow wave a magic wand, solve racism, and have full integration, it would be great for many individual black people. But black culture and black people as something distinct would begin a slow death, meaning something which has had great meaning for many people would slowly cease to be, and we'd just have a lot of people looking like Wentworth Miller and Rashida Jones walking around.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Segun

Cultures should thrive on their own, untouched to where they can feel pride on their own terms, and be their own authority. The most serendipitous interactions occur when people from different cultures feel as if that different culture has an equivalent or a counterpart. That sharing of knowledge and recognition is bonding point that brings people from different walks of life together. If a culture isn't given that chance to shine on it's own terms, it's not going to mix well with other cultures. I believe in the philosophy of letting people be in their in-group, and when they decide to step out, they'll step out, don't force it.

Originally Posted by craigs

Well, I'll bet the guy who is couching, in a cloak of so-called "pan-enclavism," his argument for the establishment of autonomous conservative white homelands didn't expect to be embraced by a a guy arguing for autonomous black enclaves!

Even though I understand Segun's point and find it perfectly natural wanting to be near peers or inside bubbles, I also agree with Craigs: that's a very slippery road and we mus balance whether our personal preferences are socially healthy.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Segun

So now you begin to understand why so many Black students might fall behind in history and not be well versed in "the classics". In so many school curriculums, all that was offered was European and US history. To even study African history is to be a pioneer and revolutionary in thought. Perhaps European history should be offered as an elective and African history taught in the curriculum in mostly Black schools. Latin American history should be taught in the curriculum in mostly Latinx schools. Asian history in mostly Asian schools, so on and so forth.

I was a freshman in an all-boys Catholic high school 30 years ago. I still remember that the first month of Freshman year we were tested in geography class on all African countries and capitals. We read about a half-dozen books by black and African authors throughout the four years. Things Fall Apart, Native Son, The Palm-Wine Drinkard, Autobiography of Malcom X, Beloved, Song of Solomon, and probably 1-2 more that I don't recall.

The thing is, I don't know the number, but we no doubt had more Indian and East Asian students in that school than black students. I don't recall reading anything by any Indian or Asian writers. We didn't study their geography, artwork, or anything. And none of them complained. In fact, most of them were at the top of the class.

We hear endlessly about how education needs to be catered to black students, who are chronically the worst performers, nationwide. Meanwhile, the kids of recent immigrants from India and East Asia expect no such red carpet treatment and have no problem doing well and in fact often outperform whites on supposedly "racist" standardized tests.

It's not tough to see that Indians and East Asians, who are now quite numerous and hold many prominent positions in industry and government, came here 100 years after the Civil War and are agitated by the continued focus on slavery and its aftermath. They showed up recently and had no figuring out how things work in the United States.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

we'd just have a lot of people looking like Wentworth Miller and Rashida Jones walking around.

if Rashida Jones is our future, then.... giddy-up!!!


source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DunderMiffl...en_filippelli/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Segun

So. I already said I can count on one hand the amount of White friends I have, despite the fact I live in a majority White area, and I don't consider myself a part of White culture, despite the fact I live in a majority White area. Maybe you should read "Invisible Man" by Ralph Ellison to understand why. Ignorance! Yes sir! Willfull ignorance? Yes sir! Willfull ignorance based upon a valid reason? Yes sir!

I think the nature of your friendships says as much about you as it does about white people.

While I don't dispute that a lot of people mostly hang out with "their own kind" (a horrible term), it's also patently false that many, many white Americans aren't open to and even seek out friendships and relationships with black people.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Segun

False. (Ok maybe not the look so much for me so much because I'm light skinnded. ) But false on so many levels man. Black people know you Black if you Brown skinned, Tan skinned or Dark skinned. You know how many Black American colloquialisms and slang I heard on the streets? Do you know how easy it was to engage in conversation with my Brothers and Sisters? This was in 1997, before the internet really took hold. That's a myth.

The Africans I encountered in Ghana were 300 times more friendly and welcoming than White people I've lived with here in the US all my life. Matter of fact, I'd go on to say that they were more friendly than a lot of Black people I've lived with here in the US all my life, real talk.

You probably won't appreciate hearing this but this all sounds a bit forced, and even fanciful to me.

I mean, I know what it's like as I am part of a culture that was forcibly severed from its origins for a couple of centuries, and that at one point put in considerable effort to reconnect and rekindle the relationship.

So sure at times it does feel forced, but then you also sometimes find some surprising common ground, some of which is there naturally, and some of which you end up building together.

I am not sure it's really there much on a "macro" level yet between African-Americans and sub-Saharan Africa, but yeah I suppose something can be constructed.

It's not usually what you expected at the outset, but it can still be rewarding and enriching.

(Speaking from experience.)

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Segun

Cultures should thrive on their own, untouched to where they can feel pride on their own terms, and be their own authority. The most serendipitous interactions occur when people from different cultures feel as if that different culture has an equivalent or a counterpart. That sharing of knowledge and recognition is bonding point that brings people from different walks of life together. If a culture isn't given that chance to shine on it's own terms, it's not going to mix well with other cultures. I believe in the philosophy of letting people be in their in-group, and when they decide to step out, they'll step out, don't force it.

Cultures should thrive on their own and keep their identity but history has shown they are fluid meaning the expectation that they remain untouched is unrealistic. They don't want to be left alone. Some of the most exciting cities in the world are due to them being crossroads of numerous cultures mixing; I recall walking around London and hearing Art Blakey blaring away and walked into the record store and saw some Jamaican and French dudes standing around listening to that album. It was sublime.

[Obadno]

At least in the USA I see states and locals reasserting themselves (this has been going on since Bush II term but really accelerated in recent years under Trump and Biden)

I think ultimately the federal government needs to decentralized lest we find ourselves re-enacting the final days of the Roman Republic with powerful men fighting for decades over who gets to sit on the half depopulated husk of DC and Fairfax County.

Now that cant literally happen because there are plenty of other serious power bases within the continental united stats that could be their own powerful states should they desire.

My point is if the USA wants to stay together its going to need to move away from the uber centralized FDR/WW2 model and go to some more federalized form.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JManc

Cultures should thrive on their own and keep their identity but history has shown they are fluid meaning the expectation that they remain untouched is unrealistic. They don't want to be left alone. Some of the most exciting cities in the world are due to them being crossroads of numerous cultures mixing; I recall walking around London and hearing Art Blakey blaring away and walked into the record store and saw some Jamaican and French dudes standing around listening to that album. It was sublime.

I definitely agree with you that cultures inexorably evolve in both unexpected and even unwanted ways.

But I'd argue that the degree of permeability to other cultures is highly variable, and also that this permeability is not necessarily a determinant of how interesting a place is.

Countries like South Korea and Japan are among the most homogenous and impermeable societies in the developed world, and no one would call them uniniteresting and culturally bland.

In Canada, Saskatchewan is actually one of our most diverse (ethnically, if not racially) provinces, and yet I can't argue that it's more interesting than our most homogenous province, Newfoundland.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I definitely agree with you that cultures inexorably evolve in both unexpected and even unwanted ways.

But I'd argue that the degree of permeability to other cultures is highly variable, and also that this permeability is not necessarily a determinant of how interesting a place is.

Countries like South Korea and Japan are among the most homogenous and impermeable societies in the developed world, and no one would call them uniniteresting and culturally bland.

In Canada, Saskatchewan is actually one of our most diverse (ethnically, if not racially) provinces, and yet I can't argue that it's more interesting than our most homogenous province, Newfoundland.

I loved Tokyo and would love to spend more time there (same with Seoul) but don't know if I could live there compared to cities like New York, Paris or London because they are so homogenous. It's one of the few things I like about living in Houston, it's dirty, hot and ugly but it's got virtually everyone from all over living here which makes it an interesting place to live.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Obadno

At least in the USA I see states and locals reasserting themselves (this has been going on since Bush II term but really accelerated in recent years under Trump and Biden)

I think ultimately the federal government needs to decentralized lest we find ourselves re-enacting the final days of the Roman Republic with powerful men fighting for decades over who gets to sit on the half depopulated husk of DC and Fairfax County.

Now that cant literally happen because there are plenty of other serious power bases within the continental united stats that could be their own powerful states should they desire.

My point is if the USA wants to stay together its going to need to move away from the uber centralized FDR/WW2 model and go to some more federalized form.

Democrats will never let that happen. This is the basis of our country, Federalism. But as long as some girl can't get an abortion in Texas, they will fight to make us all comply.

[llamaorama]

This is the basis of our country, Federalism.

No, it's not.

America right now isn't entirely the country that was founded in 1776, it's an evolution.

The American society we live in now is the one that the railroads, radio and moving pictures, compulsory education up to high school, interstate commerce, consumerism and coke and pizza, a trend of increasing social liberalism, the collective experience of WW2, all built. The extent to which our government is legitimate and not an imposter rests on top of that foundation.

The fact that about 25% of Americans reject this and instead identify with a pre-industrial oligarchy run by corrupt thugs that was frequently bankrupt and ran on resource extraction though forced labor and ethnic cleansing says a lot. You know what other country is like that? Brazil. America before the 20th century was just a colder Brazil. And what have Brazilians done for humanity? They didn't put a man on the moon or invent the internet. I'm willing to bet if the Confederacy succeeded North America would be as backwards and poor as South America.

The US is also not special. We are a country in a larger world that we are no longer uniquely superior to, and we have to be competitive and we have to live up to the endlessly escalating standards of what being a "developed nation" means if we want to keep our way of life and exert geopolitical influence of any kind. Smart people need to keep this place straight and disciplined and reject the periodic bouts of bullshit. This sounds unpatriotic because we are conditioned to believe in American exceptionalism, but if you think about it, great civilizations and great leaders didn't slack off.

My point is if the USA wants to stay together its going to need to move away from the uber centralized FDR/WW2 model and go to some more federalized form.

If it does this it will fall, because it will be a fragmented economic market of smaller states that businesses won't want to mess with. Some states won't all pull their weight either fiscally or in terms of good governnance, do we let them decline and have weird zones of poverty, outmigration, failing infrastructure, illiberal government, etc to infect neighbors? This will probably lead to more inequality between rich states and poor states. It will lead to a race to the bottom in regulations and laws and taxes. It will lead to conflict amongst states that will become increasingly impossible to deal with. It also gives some states the ability to go rogue, how will those states be held accountable? I'm not sure what problem this is meant to solve.

The EU in only a generation has managed to lose one of its main powers(Brexit), it let its most vulnerable countries rot during the recession, it's letting wannabe tyrants like Orban get what they want, its playing games shuffling migrants around causing chaos, etc. It's a highly fragile entity that wouldn't survive if there is another decade like the last. It's a paper tiger, if it wasn't for the US and NATO it would be Putin's bitch.

I don't want the US to be like that. I want Californians and New Yorkers to pay for colleges and highway improvements in Mississippi and I want Mississippians to get with the fucking program on social issues. We'll all be better off that way.

[llamaorama]

This is going to be a WTF post, don't take it too seriously....

What if in the future we have genetic engineering and we use it to breed people whose skin, hair, and eye colors and other physical traits are whatever we want entirely for aesthetic purposes? Despite being taboo I don't have a problem with this as long as the operation does not make the person less healthy or capable and the individual created is a free person who cannot be used as a sex object or tool.

Not that this would be legal in most of the world, but it takes only one island nation or space colony to host a mad scientist or two and let the cat out of the bag. We can live in a mixed, multicultural world of freedom and diversity and tolerance and also still have hot looking blondes.

There you go. It's absurd to want to mess with government, borders, etc, just to preserve some discredited, kooky biological conception of racial purity born from horrible ideologies like Nazism or ideas like Eugenics, when we can make CRISPR designer babies all day long. Or cool android flesh suits where the brain wasn't developed and is replaced by a computer we can upload our consciousness into.

The second phase of this, is with AI maybe we can preserve near-dead languages for as long as anyone cares. Some native tribe could keep it's uncommon language but a smart phone could convert it to flawless conversational english or mandarin or whatever in a voice that's based on the user, and an AR headset could change text printed on signs or objects into readable text in that language.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

The fact that about 25% of Americans reject this and instead identify with a pre-industrial oligarchy run by corrupt thugs that was frequently bankrupt and ran on resource extraction though forced labor and ethnic cleansing says a lot.

...and it nevertheless attracted huge numbers of poor people from continental Europe who willingly abandoned their native languages and had their family names chopped down because the situation here was so much better. Homesteaders got...free land. Some historians cite homesteading, singularly, as the single phenomenon that really changed the culture of the United States into something new, because wealth and power became decentralized to an unprecedented degree.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

This is going to be a WTF post, don't take it too seriously....

What if in the future we have genetic engineering and we use it to breed people whose skin, hair, and eye colors and other physical traits are whatever we want entirely for aesthetic purposes? Despite being taboo I don't have a problem with this as long as the operation does not make the person less healthy or capable and the individual created is a free person who cannot be used as a sex object or tool.

Not that this would be legal in most of the world, but it takes only one island nation or space colony to host a mad scientist or two and let the cat out of the bag. We can live in a mixed, multicultural world of freedom and diversity and tolerance and also still have hot looking blondes.

There you go. It's absurd to want to mess with government, borders, etc, just to preserve some discredited, kooky biological conception of racial purity born from horrible ideologies like Nazism or ideas like Eugenics, when we can make CRISPR designer babies all day long. Or cool android flesh suits where the brain wasn't developed and is replaced by a computer we can upload our consciousness into.

The second phase of this, is with AI maybe we can preserve near-dead languages for as long as anyone cares. Some native tribe could keep it's uncommon language but a smart phone could convert it to flawless conversational english or mandarin or whatever in a voice that's based on the user, and an AR headset could change text printed on signs or objects into readable text in that language.

First, the definition of "white" has changed many times before, and it'll probably change again. I'm not at all convinced of all this doomsday crowing about the end of white people, lol. "White" is an arbitrary definition that can be updated whenever there is a want/need to do so. Second, genetic engineering would be inherently classist and probably lead to another hierarchy based on phenotypical traits.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

if Rashida Jones is our future, then.... giddy-up!!!

Right. I have no idea who that woman is, but she looks ok, like you could make love to her.

I said melting pot to the poll because it just means various cultures living together in peace and harmony to me.
Your enclavism is more likely to cause violent rivalries between you backward racial communities, conflicts and war.

It may be easier to get it when you were raised in an inclusive community like some decent Catholicism of a large city as I was. I noticed many provincial Protestants abroad struggled with that kind of concept of so-called melting pot.
Like this for instance.

Originally Posted by 10023

The idea of a “melting pot” is almost dystopian. Everyone looking the same, dressing the same, dancing the same, eating the same. It might be a pretty good global fusion cuisine, but then as any restaurant that tried to do “Pan-Asian” food demonstrates, it probably wouldn’t be. The differences make life more interesting.

All people are de facto different. Melting pot inevitably brings about different new things.
No one will ever be the same. Even White or Black people are very different, when you compare one to another of their same fucking superstitious race.
That's the whole complexity of this world and it's great. Life would be boring indeed if we all were the same.