Great Lakes Cities

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ well, that makes perfect sense.


Windsor -> Chicago: ~4.5 hours drive time

Windsor -> NYC: ~10 hours drive time


Toronto -> Chicago: ~8 hours drive time

Toronto -> NYC: ~8 hours drive time



Do people in Windsor look to Toronto as their "big city" or is the Detroit/Windsor area already seen as the "big city"?

I haven't visited my friend in a long time, but
Pre 911 It was easier to cross, and at the few times that I visited, it was fairly seamless to cross over to the Detroit side. It was the "big" city, and wasn't lacking anything. Toronto had little to no influence, and why should it when you have an iconic American city right there. Now, it's much harder to cross over, but if your papers are in order it's no problem..My friend told me recently, that he still trips over to Detroit, but not nearly as often as before.
My guess is that Detroit is still considered "The big city" for all of deep South Western ON..London sort of acts as the regional centre I suppose, but I'm not sure if Windsor leans towards London as much as other S/W ON communities.

[Crawford]

I think SW Ontario west of London looks to Detroit as the regional "big city". Once you hit London you notice the Leafs fans, and other Toronto influences.

Which is not to say that Detroit looks like SW Ontario. There are deep economic and cultural linkages, but there are also obvious national distinctions.

[Steely Dan]

^ i guess one of the clearest indicators in SW ontario would be where leafs fandom starts to give way to red wings fandom.

anyone know where that line roughly is?

if london is more in toronto's orbit, are sarnia and and chatham more red wings country?

does canada have those "fan maps" by county like the US does?


as an aisde, i didn't realize this until looking at gmaps right now, but as the crow flies, london is almost exactly halfway between toronto and detroit.

[suburbanite]

London's probably a good marker for sports fandom. West of that, and you're in Chatham/Sarnia (the latter of which is like 75% Red Wings). The London Knights have more recently produced notable Leaf players like Kadri and Marner which helps.

[Razor]

My friend is a huge Leafs fan, and from what I gathered from him, Windsor was still Leafs country, with the Wings being number 2..The Jays for baseball, the Raptors for Basketball, but the Lions for NFL..This was just according to him, and from a past convo..The sample rate of 1 may not reflect the reality.

What's interesting to me is the Niagara region because while Buffalo still has the major league sports, Hamilton also has some influence for that region..The dynamics are a lot different than what you see in Detroit/Windsor with David and Goliath.
When you think of it, there is good chunk of people living just in the Niagara region straddling both sides, and Toronto aside, there is no real dominant alpha city directly in that region. Well maybe Buffalo, but Hamilton certainly shares some of that.

And edit: I couldn't help myself, so I just got off the phone with my pal who informed me that the Windsor area is split evenly between Detroit and Toronto when it comes to sports fandom.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Do people in Windsor look to Toronto as their "big city" or is the Detroit/Windsor area already seen as the "big city"?

Detroit, there's no question.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ i guess one of the clearest indicators in SW ontario would be where leafs fandom starts to give way to red wings fandom.

anyone know where that line roughly is?

if london is more in toronto's orbit, are sarnia and and chatham more red wings country?

does canada have those "fan maps" by county like the US does?


as an aisde, i didn't realize this until looking at gmaps right now, but as the crow flies, london is almost exactly halfway between toronto and detroit.

I can't speak for Chatham or Sarnia, but Detroit doesn't exert the pull that it once did on London, Ontario. As a percent of London NHL hockey fans, I would say that hardcore Red Wings fans are probably less than 10%, way behind the Marble Loafs and considerably behind the second place Habs.

Few people in London travel regularly to Detroit. Whereas many Londoners travel regularly to Toronto. Both cities are the same distance from London. The magnetic pull of Toronto is getting stronger each year, and our real estate market has recently caught fire due to Torontonians getting priced out of the GTA (and/or looking for 'more home' for their dollars). Many Londoners have family in the GTA. I do, my wife does, our neighbors do, etc.

[edale]

Originally Posted by The North One

Detroit, there's no question.

When I think of a 'big city' experience, Detroit doesn't really fit the bill. Who's going to Detroit for a weekend to experience 'big city' culture? I think of NYC, Toronto, Chicago...places where you can experience the city mostly on foot, possibly take the subway/transit, vibrant downtown shopping/theater/nightlife districts, etc. I know Downtown Detroit has come a long way in recent years, but it doesn't compare to those other 3 cities. The Somerset Collection doesn't really offer the same experience as Michigan Avenue...

[Crawford]

Well, yeah. But then we're talking like six cities in the U.S.

I think to most, "big city" attractions are amenities like major international airport, professional sports, comprehensive shopping, broad dining scene, nightlife, extensive high culture, etc. Not necessarily vibrant, centralized core, comprehensive public transit, packed sidewalks, which are extremely rare characteristics in the U.S.

For a "big city downtown weekend", I'd say the only U.S. cities that qualify are NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, Chi and SF. Maybe you could argue Seattle and New Orleans.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

For a "big city downtown weekend", I'd say the only U.S. cities that qualify are NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, Chi and SF. Maybe you could argue Seattle and New Orleans.

and toronto, montreal, and possibly vancouver would count in canada as well, no?

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Well, yeah. But then we're talking like six cities in the U.S.

I think to most, "big city" attractions are amenities like major international airport, professional sports, comprehensive shopping, broad dining scene, nightlife, extensive high culture, etc. Not necessarily vibrant, centralized core, comprehensive public transit, packed sidewalks, which are extremely rare characteristics in the U.S.

For a "big city downtown weekend", I'd say the only U.S. cities that qualify are NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, Chi and SF. Maybe you could argue Seattle and New Orleans.

We were obviously in the wrong parts of Philly's core when we visited as pointed out in a previous thread..Liked the city though.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

the 18 year old drinking age in Montreal is also a draw for university types as far south as NYC from my understanding.

Oh yeah. I had lots of friends who would routinely drive up to Quebec (from Upstate NY) to go drinking.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

and toronto, montreal, and possibly vancouver would count in canada as well, no?

Yeah, the big 3 from Canada would definitely also count here.

[Docere]

Interesting to note that Michigan is the state where the Great Lakes are most dominant geographically, yet its largest city (Detroit) isn't on one.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by edale

When I think of a 'big city' experience, Detroit doesn't really fit the bill. Who's going to Detroit for a weekend to experience 'big city' culture? I think of NYC, Toronto, Chicago...places where you can experience the city mostly on foot, possibly take the subway/transit, vibrant downtown shopping/theater/nightlife districts, etc. I know Downtown Detroit has come a long way in recent years, but it doesn't compare to those other 3 cities. The Somerset Collection doesn't really offer the same experience as Michigan Avenue...

Maybe it doesn't seem that way to someone who lives in L.A., but Detroit would definitely feel like "the big city" to someone from London, Ontario. Obviously, Toronto is now the bigger city in the region, but that's been a fairly recent switch.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by edale

When I think of a 'big city' experience, Detroit doesn't really fit the bill. Who's going to Detroit for a weekend to experience 'big city' culture? I think of NYC, Toronto, Chicago...places where you can experience the city mostly on foot, possibly take the subway/transit, vibrant downtown shopping/theater/nightlife districts, etc. I know Downtown Detroit has come a long way in recent years, but it doesn't compare to those other 3 cities. The Somerset Collection doesn't really offer the same experience as Michigan Avenue...

lmfao get out of here with this awful trolling. Makes you sound clueless.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Docere

Interesting to note that Michigan is the state where the Great Lakes are most dominant geographically, yet its largest city (Detroit) isn't on one.

Detroit was a great place for a fort, which is what it was when Europeans first settled in the area.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Maybe it doesn't seem that way to someone who lives in L.A., but Detroit would definitely feel like "the big city" to someone from London, Ontario. Obviously, Toronto is now the bigger city in the region, but that's been a fairly recent switch.

Pretty sure this would feel like a big city to literally anybody.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3343...7i16384!8i8192

Plenty of shopping here too, restaurants, nightlife in Greektown, institutions like DIA right down Woodward, better theatres than the vast majority of the United States. More than enough entertainment for a big city trip. That guy just likes taking little jabs at Detroit.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Detroit was a great place for a fort, which is what it was when Europeans first settled in the area.

Exactly.

Detroit might not be located DIRECTLY on the shore of one of the great lakes, but the Detroit river, as one of the most significant connecting waterways on the lakes, has always been a very important strategic control point, and thus garnered interest from European explorers and settlers from the very earliest days. I don't know Detroit's pre-colonial history well, but that location (or somewhere thereabouts) was probably important to the native people of the region long before the euros arrived as well.

Detroit owes it's very existence to its location within the great lakes waterway system, and thus, I would argue, is absolutely a "great lakes city".

[Docere]

Not denying Detroit's Great Lakes-ness.