First Nations in Canada

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That may be true but I can tell you that as the administrator of two pioneer cemeteries, there are many undocumented child burials of caucasian families in our cemeteries. Many families were too poor to mark the sites and now the locations and identities are forgotten. Hopefully, there is
better documentation for the residential school cemeteries.

In fairness, the pioneer family that buried the child was at least able to be there with the child right through to the bitter end. Certainly they would have been familiar with the burial site even if no one remembers it today.

Much different scenario if your kid got hauled away 300 km to some place you've never been in your life where they died and were then buried and no one bothered to tell you any of the details.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by esquire

In fairness, the pioneer family that buried the child was at least able to be there with the child right through to the bitter end. Certainly they would have been familiar with the burial site even if no one remembers it today.

Much different scenario if your kid got hauled away 300 km to some place you've never been in your life where they died and were then buried and no one bothered to tell you any of the details.

Do we know for sure that the families were not informed? In most cases, the families are long deceased, so it is possible, that this information was similarly lost over time, just as the exact location of the cemeteries. They knew they were there. This is all portrayed as a shock but is it really? It is a great way to gain a tremendous publicity and public attention.

The stories that have been shared are usually from kids who would not be directly privy to burials of those from other families. Rumours run rampant. I remember all kinds of rumours when I was in school about teachers and other kids.

[dreambrother808]

“And we go round and round and round in the circle game…”

The truths we face here are painful and it is human nature to protect oneself by using defence mechanisms to reduce their impact.

But any kind of reconciliation requires that acceptance.

We’ve had an extensive public inquiry and the results weren’t “maybe it’s just kids making up stories”.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Do we know for sure that the families were not informed? In most cases, the families are long deceased, so it is possible, that this information was similarly lost over time, just as the exact location of the cemeteries. They knew they were there. This is all portrayed as a shock but is it really? It is a great way to gain a tremendous publicity and public attention.

The stories that have been shared are usually from kids who would not be directly privy to burials of those from other families. Rumours run rampant. I remember all kinds of rumours when I was in school about teachers and other kids.

I'm sure many families knew, but it also seems unlikely that every family was diligently informed of their child's death. I mean, back in the old days it probably wasn't easy to do that even if you wanted to.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That may be true but I can tell you that as the administrator of two pioneer cemeteries, there are many undocumented child burials of caucasian families in our cemeteries. Many families were too poor to mark the sites and now the locations and identities are forgotten. Hopefully, there is better documentation for the residential school cemeteries.

Would the poorer pioneer families have buried their deceased children in coffins? If so, would they have been makeshift wooden coffins that decomposed over time? Is it always easy to distinguish between bodies buried directly in the soil and those buried in coffins?

Were the indigenous kids buried in wooden coffins that decomposed over time? I don't recall hearing anything addressing this aspect of the grave sites, but have only seen the term "mass graves" being used, which seems inappropriate (given that "mass graves" is a loaded term describing what happens during wars, famines or epidemics).

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Disagreeing with you is not a toddler tantrum. In fact, I was being far more respectful than you deserve considering the fact that you reduced it down to insults after I had merely referred to a relevant comparison from an article. You treat that comparison as if it is undeniably and roundly refuted when nothing has been shown to truly back that up. Apparently, no one is allowed to post about the depth of the ugly truth without having it watered down for the comfort of some people on this forum.

You are bothered by those with progressive values, clearly. That sounds difficult for you, but that is your problem because those values are only growing in our society. Keep throwing your own tantrums in response.

So hyperbolic, out of context comparisons to death rates in world wars are cool for the woke side, but anyone not entirely (or sufficiently) woke is not allowed to make comparisons to other 'settler' outcomes throughout history (hint: none of them were too keen to accommodate the the settled peoples)?

Just want to make sure those goal posts aren't too secure...

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Would the poorer pioneer families have buried their deceased children in coffins? If so, would they have been makeshift wooden coffins that decomposed over time? Is it always easy to distinguish between bodies buried directly in the soil and those buried in coffins?

Were the indigenous kids buried in wooden coffins that decomposed over time? I don't recall hearing anything addressing this aspect of the grave sites, but have only seen the term "mass graves" being used, which seems inappropriate (given that "mass graves" is a loaded term describing what happens during wars, famines or epidemics).

Anybody who uses the term 'mass graves' is sensationalizing this issue. I read a newspaper article that specifically mentioned that the Kamloops news release did not use this term. There was no indication that there were mass graves like what was seen with the Holocaust etc. but an orderly burial site consistent with Christian burial practices.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Disagreeing with you is not a toddler tantrum. In fact, I was being far more respectful than you deserve considering the fact that you reduced it down to insults after I had merely referred to a relevant comparison from an article. You treat that comparison as if it is undeniably and roundly refuted when nothing has been shown to truly back that up. Apparently, no one is allowed to post about the depth of the ugly truth without having it watered down for the comfort of some people on this forum.

You are bothered by those with progressive values, clearly. That sounds difficult for you, but that is your problem because those values are only growing in our society. Keep throwing your own tantrums in response.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Younger and future generations will be able to better come to terms with these issues without reacting so defensively. At some point one must accept that large portions of older generations will never be able to do so in their lifetimes. Focusing on their progress is a waste of time as the future seeds are already here and planting their acceptable goalposts beyond mine.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

“And we go round and round and round in the circle game…”

The truths we face here are painful and it is human nature to protect oneself by using defence mechanisms to reduce their impact.

But any kind of reconciliation requires that acceptance.

We’ve had an extensive public inquiry and the results weren’t “maybe it’s just kids making up stories”.

This should go without saying, but evidently it does not; I and almost every other Canadian has zero reason to be guilty about the running of residential schools, because we had no role at all in their operation. We either weren't born here or are too young - and that will be even more the case going forward with younger people.

You appear to see yourself as being much smarter and morally superior to those of us that haven't seen the light and not totally onboard with the cause. But what you bring to the table is really quite lacking in substance - what are you actually hoping to get out of the conversation when it's just you telling us how awful things were? I'm sure most Canadians actually agree with that and do think it's past time the government truly digs up the past. Do you want us to just keep repeating "oh yes it was bad, truly terrible"?

I would say your participation in the discussion is counterproductive to the cause you care about. Making posts which are sensational, often nonsensical and even objectively false while making out that anyone who disagrees with you is just old and out of touch, probably racist, is just going to push people away. Rational people hear this and think if this is the best the woke have got, it's obviously all garbage and not think much of it. If your strategy is to just write off anyone older than 30 and hope the young will take up the new religion without question, I don't know if that's going to be successful.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by milomilo

This should go without saying, but evidently it does not; I and almost every other Canadian has zero reason to be guilty about the running of residential schools, because we had no role at all in their operation. We either weren't born here or are too young - and that will be even more the case going forward with younger people.

You appear to see yourself as being much smarter and morally superior to those of us that haven't seen the light and not totally onboard with the cause. But what you bring to the table is really quite lacking in substance - what are you actually hoping to get out of the conversation when it's just you telling us how awful things were? I'm sure most Canadians actually agree with that and do think it's past time the government truly digs up the past. Do you want us to just keep repeating "oh yes it was bad, truly terrible"?

I would say your participation in the discussion is counterproductive to the cause you care about. Making posts which are sensational, often nonsensical and even objectively false while making out that anyone who disagrees with you is just old and out of touch, probably racist, is just going to push people away. Rational people hear this and think if this is the best the woke have got, it's obviously all garbage and not think much of it. If your strategy is to just write off anyone older than 30 and hope the young will take up the new religion without question, I don't know if that's going to be successful.

Totally agreed.

BTW, thanks to the unrelenting pressure of the woke, I've adapted my view to the new zeitgeist slightly and I'm now more okay with no running water on reserves than I was before. In pre-Columbian America, they didn't have that; it's totally a white man's import, they were always fine without it. Fair enough, then. Who am I to argue with that, if they really insist on living like that? I'm okay with Amish already... why not FNs too. Let's stop worrying about them, we did that too much already (residential schools, etc.) so let's leave them alone instead. We don't bother the Amish, don't we? And it works fine for everyone. In my view, that's the change that needs to happen: leave them to their own devices, no more complaining. (If we're not going to abolish the separate status thing and switch to "a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian".)

[casper]

Originally Posted by lio45

Totally agreed.

BTW, thanks to the unrelenting pressure of the woke, I've adapted my view to the new zeitgeist slightly and I'm now more okay with no running water on reserves than I was before. In pre-Columbian America, they didn't have that; it's totally a white man's import, they were always fine without it. Fair enough, then. Who am I to argue with that, if they really insist on living like that? I'm okay with Amish already... why not FNs too. Let's stop worrying about them, we did that too much already (residential schools, etc.) so let's leave them alone instead. We don't bother the Amish, don't we? And it works fine for everyone. In my view, that's the change that needs to happen: leave them to their own devices, no more complaining. (If we're not going to abolish the separate status thing and switch to "a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian".)

I think we need to step back and separate "Canadians" from "The Government of Canada".

Canadians are a group of people. Many who were born after the residential school system was gone. Nearly every Canadian had no involvement in creating or operating residential schools. A very small number did and most have now died. You can't blame Canadians for this, that said most of use view the entire residential school system as evil.

"The Government of Canada" is a entity that should be held accountable for its role in creating and administering these schools.

I think it is important to separate the two.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Me&You

So hyperbolic, out of context comparisons to death rates in world wars are cool for the woke side, but anyone not entirely (or sufficiently) woke is not allowed to make comparisons to other 'settler' outcomes throughout history (hint: none of them were too keen to accommodate the the settled peoples)?

Just want to make sure those goal posts aren't too secure...

I don’t see the point you are trying to make here. Yes, history is filled with trauma and inhumanity?

And once again, to those who keep saying that these comparisons are out of context and hyperbolic, you haven’t actually shown that.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by casper

I think we need to step back and separate "Canadians" from "The Government of Canada".

Canadians are a group of people. Many who were born after the residential school system was gone. Nearly every Canadian had no involvement in creating or operating residential schools. A very small number did and most have now died. You can't blame Canadians for this, that said most of use view the entire residential school system as evil.

"The Government of Canada" is a entity that should be held accountable for its role in creating and administering these schools.

I think it is important to separate the two.

Yes, and all non-Indigenous Canadians have benefited from the genocide, as such we owe Indigenous peoples our empathy, respect, and humble effort to seek reconciliation.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by milomilo

This should go without saying, but evidently it does not; I and almost every other Canadian has zero reason to be guilty about the running of residential schools, because we had no role at all in their operation. We either weren't born here or are too young - and that will be even more the case going forward with younger people.

You appear to see yourself as being much smarter and morally superior to those of us that haven't seen the light and not totally onboard with the cause. But what you bring to the table is really quite lacking in substance - what are you actually hoping to get out of the conversation when it's just you telling us how awful things were? I'm sure most Canadians actually agree with that and do think it's past time the government truly digs up the past. Do you want us to just keep repeating "oh yes it was bad, truly terrible"?

I would say your participation in the discussion is counterproductive to the cause you care about. Making posts which are sensational, often nonsensical and even objectively false while making out that anyone who disagrees with you is just old and out of touch, probably racist, is just going to push people away. Rational people hear this and think if this is the best the woke have got, it's obviously all garbage and not think much of it. If your strategy is to just write off anyone older than 30 and hope the young will take up the new religion without question, I don't know if that's going to be successful.

You are the one using hyperbole to respond to my posts. Meanwhile, the discussions going on in Canadian society are unprecedented and the window of understanding has already shifted further away from yours. That is causing some panic amongst conservatives, hence these types of threads. Conservatives only have a long history of losing these cultural battles. The ground shifts more and more every year.

We don’t just need anyone younger than 30, as there are plenty of older people who also understand. I am in my 40s. As for generational turnover creating change, that is literally how life on our planet has always worked. Change is constant. Adaptation is life, itself.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Do we know for sure that the families were not informed? In most cases, the families are long deceased, so it is possible, that this information was similarly lost over time, just as the exact location of the cemeteries. They knew they were there. This is all portrayed as a shock but is it really? It is a great way to gain a tremendous publicity and public attention.

The stories that have been shared are usually from kids who would not be directly privy to burials of those from other families. Rumours run rampant. I remember all kinds of rumours when I was in school about teachers and other kids.

In many cases the parents were not given the cause of death. Bodies were not returned unless it was cheap to do so. Not sure why you’re hellbent on minimizing this issue.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, and all non-Indigenous Canadians have benefited from the genocide, as such we owe Indigenous peoples our empathy, respect, and humble effort to seek reconciliation.

I think the use of genocide implies that these kids were put into an oven, or purposefully murdered. They died from illnesses/sicknesses that occurred as a result of the horrid conditions (mostly from tuberculosis). The deaths that happened would never stand a 1st degree charge - or even manslaughter. It's incredibly sad that many of these kids died, but it was not mass murder/genocide. It takes away from our friends with Jewish relatives who were killed in the holocaust, or what happened in Rwanda. The Government of Canada wanted to assimilate these kids - there's no question about that, they wanted to "take the Indian out of the child". This is what made residential schools so bad, and a sad part of Canadian history. The abuse (physical, sexual, mental) that happened (in all schools in Canada of the time period) was sick, I encourage you to ask anyone over the age of 80 about their experience in school in Canada when they were young - incredibly sad - these things occurred in all schools, though (residential and non-residential). I don't think as a society we like to admit that almost all of our grandparents/great grandparents went through this.

[Chadillaccc]

Good god, this thread is fucked. Maybe we should bring back the concentration camp (residential school) system for 30+ year old straight white dickcheese-stinking-ass cunts like the conservative pricks on here and see how y'all like it.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Good god, this thread is fucked. Maybe we should bring back the concentration camp (residential school) system for 30+ year old straight white dickcheese-stinking-ass cunts like the conservative pricks on here and see how y'all like it.

Hey man, at least you are doing your part! By creating a signature with a name for Calgary that no-one uses, that is so proud of the place for housing 1.6 million people, that exists entirely because evil white people colonised the place and put the land to more productive economic use than the previous population. There would be none of the 400 highrises you celebrate, there would be perhaps a handful of tents, had some dickcheese-stinking-ass-cunts (how would you know that?) not developed it.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by toaster

I think the use of genocide implies that these kids were put into an oven, or purposefully murdered. They died from illnesses/sicknesses that occurred as a result of the horrid conditions (mostly from tuberculosis). The deaths that happened would never stand a 1st degree charge - or even manslaughter. It's incredibly sad that many of these kids died, but it was not mass murder/genocide. It takes away from our friends with Jewish relatives who were killed in the holocaust, or what happened in Rwanda. The Government of Canada wanted to assimilate these kids - there's no question about that, they wanted to "take the Indian out of the child". This is what made residential schools so bad, and a sad part of Canadian history. The abuse (physical, sexual, mental) that happened (in all schools in Canada of the time period) was sick, I encourage you to ask anyone over the age of 80 about their experience in school in Canada when they were young - incredibly sad - these things occurred in all schools, though (residential and non-residential). I don't think as a society we like to admit that almost all of our grandparents/great grandparents went through this.

Well said.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You are the one using hyperbole to respond to my posts. Meanwhile, the discussions going on in Canadian society are unprecedented and the window of understanding has already shifted further away from yours. That is causing some panic amongst conservatives, hence these types of threads. Conservatives only have a long history of losing these cultural battles. The ground shifts more and more every year.

We don’t just need anyone younger than 30, as there are plenty of older people who also understand. I am in my 40s. As for generational turnover creating change, that is literally how life on our planet has always worked. Change is constant. Adaptation is life, itself.

What is the end goal? If we daily all say in unison that what Canada did in the past is awful, will that make things better? What are you expecting from the young? That they will gleefully tear down statues and participate in the fiction that they are complicit in ongoing genocide? Maybe they will, but I don't find it convincing that it will improve FN people's lives all that much.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, and all non-Indigenous Canadians have benefited from the genocide, as such we owe Indigenous peoples our empathy, respect, and humble effort to seek reconciliation.

If that genocide resulted in modern Canada (and the USA, Australia, NZ) then indigenous people benefited from it too, unless we want to turn back the clock and preserve those areas as some sort of wildlife sanctuaries where the primitive civilisations can be observed. That's unlikely to be what actual FN peoples want, I'm sure they will want the same modern amenities that advanced nations enjoy.

And in truth the genocide Canada attempted likely wasn't beneficial to Canada at all, probably a net loss.

[O-tacular]

Well this thread is basically where I expected it to be. Enjoy splitting hairs about what constitutes genocide or an atrocity you heartless assholes. I can’t believe the amount of oxygen certain people will waste defending the indefensible. It is possible to participate in Canadian society while still acknowledging the evils of colonialism and native genocide. And yes: it is lamentable that settlers destroyed entire ecosystems such as the prairies while slaughtering 30 million buffalo in what used to be North America’s Serengeti. They did that to starve tribes who were reliant on the species and to make way for European farmers. My Scottish ancestors moved to Alberta to farm and I feel sadness thinking of what they displaced.