First Nations in Canada

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You mean the time period that lead to civil rights in the US, the end of the idea that the US could simply draft fodder for any war, an era of substantial gain for women's rights and a booming economy, and closed out by putting a man on the moon?

Sounds awful.

If it really is like the 60s, I look forward to substantial advancement in reconciliation and quality of life for our First Nations. The Civil Rights challenge of our time. And real gains tackling climate change, the space race of this era.

I hated the process of the 1960s, not necessarily the eventual results.

The lunar program was incidental to the tumult of the 1960s, and many of the protesters resented the money spent "putting Whitey on the Moon". The pride in the success of this accomplishment could easily have gone the other way if there had been a catastrophic failure.

The booming economy was as a result of the space race more than anything else. It led to a lot of innovation and research.

The civil rights movement unquestionably was a good thing, but the rioting and looting in Detroit devastated the city, and it never truly recovered. White flight was a real thing, and has never been reversed.

As for the Viet Nam War and the draft, that was a horrible time. The Cold War created a lot of uncertainty and worry for people my age. On a personal note, my mother was American, and although I was brought up in Canada as a Canadian citizen, I always wondered if I could be nabbed if I visited the US and be forcibly conscripted. It left me a little paranoid.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

For all the turmoil, more progress for social justice and equality was made during the 1960s than in the century that preceded it. certainly in the United States.

Here in Canada, it is worth remembering that Natives did not have the right to vote (without losing their treaty status) until 1960.

plus the music was way, way, way, way better than the stuff today.

I was just thinking you're kind of like our Allen Ginsberg.

From the previous generation but very "with it" when it comes to the views of the current one.

Though I suspect that unlike you today, Ginsberg probably really digged the music of the era.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As a boomer, all I can say is that the 2020s are the new 1960s. I hated the 1960s. I remember JFK, RFK, MLK, the DNC, the Detroit riots, Viet Nam the FLQ, etc. It was not a pleasant time. I really hate that we are going through this again. There is so much angst at present, and I really doubt that in the end, that much will be accomplished by all this.

Canada essentially stayed in 1959 until the '70s hit in 1968, as a lot of the '60s touchstones were of US events.

It might not have been a pleasant time, but it was a phase that needed to happen, especially in the United States.

Do I think the 2020s are going to be of the same magnitude for Canada? No. Our transition has been much more subtle. Were Indigenous rights really on the national radar during the '70s, '80s and '90s? Not really. English Canada and French Canada were sussing their relationship out then and that consumed our national psyche.

It wasn't really until Oka and Elijah Harper where the figurative torch was passed. Canada and Quebec have mostly come to an agreement in the aftermath of 1995 - aside from irritants that fizzle out fairly quickly.

So, yes, in that sense, more oxygen was available for other groups to gain their needed attention. I remain cautiously optimistic, as we unearth the ghosts of the past (literally). Once we put the dead to rest peacefully on their own terms, we can hopefully move forward productively.

Will there be racism in future Canada? Yes. Will Canada's changing mosaic make it better or worse? I'd like to think better, as our leading indicator cities seem to be making that work reasonably well given their multicultural makeup. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are Canada's future, not its past. One forgets how culturally homogeneous Canada was until the 1990s (>90% White European). For cultural change, that's lightning speed.

Given that things like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission would have been basically dismissed in Mulroney-era Canada (heck, there were residential school still operating then), I'd like to think the moving forward process has more credit that some give it.

It'll be messy. There will be backsliding. We'll probably still unearthing the ghosts of the past for a good while. Statues will come and go. Canada will change from European-ancestry dominated to real multiculturalism.

I'd like to think we'll make it through and it will be a better place for all.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Canada essentially stayed in 1959 until the '70s hit in 1968, as a lot of the '60s touchstones were of US events.

This is something that I have always felt myself, and expressed to others in the past.

The 1950s lasted until 1968. I strongly feel this is culturally true.

1968 changed everything.

The time period from 1968-1977 was tumultuous, dark and unnerving.

2020 was 1968 all over again. How long will the tumult last this time?????

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

2020 was 1968 all over again. How long will the tumult last this time?????

1968 had no less than two major assassinations of major political figures (MLK and RFK) and riots that made 2020 look like kids play.

It was peak year of the Vietnam War in terms of troop deployment and protest.

Several near-revolutions occurred worldwide (May '68 in France, Prague Spring, among others)

2020 was no 1968.

Tumult is part of the process of change. It's necessary sometimes. It can be ugly, certainly. However, I'll take an ugly process that moves things forward. Change is going to happen, regardless of people like it or not.

It is interesting to note how the people who were of 1968 are of 2020. It's an interesting bookend to generational transition.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by biguc

Fuck me for thinking we could actually make some headway on forum etiquette. You three manbabies never learn.

Originally Posted by giallo

Yeah, man. This is a pathetic display. Making jokes about a Nordic genocide in a thread about 200 dead aboriginal children. "Look, it already happened to white people by brown people. What's the big deal?"

Another reason why I rarely venture in to these threads. It's just an old man circle jerk. Pure callousness.

You've always been a solid dude, Molson.

Originally Posted by Brizzy82

Yep. I don’t stay too far from the photo threads for that exact reason.

The dog whistles are not so quiet around here anymore. It never used to feel that way 10 years ago. Maybe I just became more aware of it.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It happens for sure. I am also a gen-Xer (51). I have lamented the rightward drift of some friends, and former friends who drifted too far, and that I could no longer tolerate given their increasing penchant for resorting to prejudiced viewpoints (Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Natives, Immigrants, Gays, Women, what have you) as well as their pathological, malicious need to find scapegoats. Most of all, their capacity for empathy seems to have shriveled, inverse to the proportion that their capacity for lashing out has grown. All of these former friends and soon-to-be former friends were not at all like this back in my bar hopping days of the eighties and nineties.

'wHy CaN't We HaVe A tHrEaD oN rAcIsM iN cAnAdA???'

Because it turns into the absolute mess that this thread has become. COVID and BLM at the same time last year really was a turning point for dialogue on this forum and really shed light on how specific folks here think. Very enlightening.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

In most cases, I think using the word "racist" as a noun is less useful than using it as an adjective. There are no doubt some people whose world view is so racist (adjective) that one could describe that person with the noun racist. Obviously, those people are a minority. However, many people who are not noun racist nonetheless unconsciously, have their views or actions influenced by racist stereotypes from time to time. I can say that because I recognize that I am such a person. So there is at least one regular (or former regular) contributor on here who is influenced from time to time by racist stereotypes.

Double bingo. I have noticed this over the years and it takes regular effort to wean yourself off of.

Those that bristle the most at the racist term are the "I don't see color!" crowd.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it about age, I mean more in terms of outlook. The type of progressive outlook that definitely existed in the 80s and 90s and still exists vs. the type that didn't really exist then but does now. I couldn't really think of a more concise way of expressing what I meant, but you're right that it's not necessarily an age thing.

All good, Hali. I didn't mean to target you with my 'age defence' post either, yours just happened to be the last one I read that motivated me to post something about it.

I perhaps overstated it a bit, as clearly age and generation do have an effect on your perspective and thought patterns, just like race and culture do. The point is, we all come from different places in one way or another, that gives us each a unique life experience. I have just read 'boomer' this and 'millennial' that too many times and get tired of people being pigeonholed into categories based upon one particular aspect of their life experience (in this case, age).

In retrospect, if I had it to do again I would have just let it slide as part of the conversation as I can see it didn't serve to advance the conversation at all.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by giallo

I absolutely understand where you're coming from, and it's never good to assume, but in this case, on this forum, it rings true.

As an old(er) white man myself, I've witnessed a fair number of my fellow Gen-Xers become a lot more openly racist/prejudice over the years. Whether they always thought like that, and only became more open about it because they care less about what people think or as they aged they got more worried/scared about the state of things upsetting their nest, it's more than just anecdotical. Social media plays a big part as I wouldn't have been subjected to so many examples of this behavior without it. Luckily, most of my friends have not gone down this path, but I have had a really good friend gradually become a white supremacist before my very eyes.

Anyway, it happens here (the pure callousness at least), so it's worth pointing out.

Fair enough. It does exist, no doubt, but hasn't been my experience in general.

Regardless, nobody wants to be pigeonholed into a negative category by people who don't know them, simply based on any characteristic (age, race, culture, country of origin, gender, lifestyle preference, etc. etc. etc.), so I don't see it serving the conversation much.

However, it's not my call - I'm not here to judge, just to participate as one member of the conversation.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Those that bristle the most at the racist term are the "I don't see color!" crowd.

"I regular have coffee with a black, gay, motorcycle mechanic - real salt of the earth sort - and he says..."

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

All good, Hali. I didn't mean to target you with my 'age defence' post either, yours just happened to be the last one I read that motivated me to post something about it.

I perhaps overstated it a bit, as clearly age and generation do have an effect on your perspective and thought patterns, just like race and culture do. The point is, we all come from different places in one way or another, that gives us each a unique life experience. I have just read 'boomer' this and 'millennial' that too many times and get tired of people being pigeonholed into categories based upon one particular aspect of their life experience (in this case, age).

In retrospect, if I had it to do again I would have just let it slide as part of the conversation as I can see it didn't serve to advance the conversation at all.

It's the exact same phenomenon that Pavlov has mentioned: many of us operate with subconscious ageist stereotypes.

Takes some effort to fight that.
(and obviously one has to notice it first)

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Double bingo. I have noticed this over the years and it takes regular effort to wean yourself off of.

Those that bristle the most at the racist term are the "I don't see color!" crowd.

For what its worth (not much), my wife is racialized (black) and our two children are (unsurprisingly) mixed race. And a significant portion of my career involves practicing human rights law. And I still catch myself being influenced by racial stereotypes from time to time (and no doubt there are times where I'm being influenced by racial stereotypes and I don't catch it).

I don't get defensive about this. It doesn't make me a terrible human being. And society as we know it will not be destabilized if all of us recognize this human frailty in ourselves, others, and our institutions.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd also like to respond to comments about Gen Xers, and how they supposedly are frustrated that after working so hard to change the world, Millenials are telling them that they didn't finish the job and that so much still needs to be done.

For starters, ''having worked hard as a generation to change the world" isn't a Gen Xer thing. People are mixing us up with Baby Boomers.

I'll let Baby Boomers answer for themselves at whether they're frustrated with Millenials, but as a Gen Xer I can say with some confidence that that's not us.

It is true that Gen Xers mostly do feel that things were probably more harmonious back in the days when they were young. I will go out on a limb and say that many minority Gen Xers might agree with this. Things were far from perfect of course, but one definitely had a sense that they'd improved from what they were in the decades not long before, and were heading in the right direction. (Still with work to do of course.)

There was also a sense that the 80s and 90s were a progression along a continuum that flowed naturally from the 60s and 70s. In some ways, we had begun reaping some of the benefits of what the Baby Boomers had sowed.

I think there is a sense among *most* Baby Boomers and Gen Xers that the current push isn't part of that progressive continuum, and is turning the clock back on some pretty transformational stuff that was long considered positive and settled.

Perhaps this is just a storm we need to get through before we get to an even better place (as you know I'm skeptical of this), but I can definitely say that at the moment, these times that kids are growing up in are clearly way less harmonious and pleasant than those I grew up in.

Call me old and nostalgic if you wish.

I have to say that I just don't look at things in these terms. The world as we know it (i.e. the part of history that includes human society as far back as history was recorded and/or verbally passed on) has never been in a state of completion, nor will it ever. IMHO society will always be in a state of change and (hopefully) evolution aiming at some target of 'ultimate good'.

This whole concept of naming generations ("boomers", "gen X", etc.) is really silly, and IIRC was created by advertising people trying to figure out demographics in order to make as much money as they could by selling stuff targeted at particular age groups. IMHO, they have also used this to create disparities between the groups to sell even more stuff (like, that 'old' thing is so 'boomer'... you need to buy this 'new' thing to be cool). Additionally, summing things up by decades is ridiculous as well, as if the 1960s was this little compartmentalized decade where everything changed on January 1960, and changed again on January 1970 - things are not so clean or clearly defined, but for some reason we like to think they do. Regardless... I do it myself, but still think it's stupid...

That said, the times we are going through now have some similarities to past times, but also major differences. We can learn from history, and we should, but we should also not be confined by history. It's great to understand how we got to where we are today, and it's imperative that we continue to work hard to evolve. I'd like to think that these conversations are one of the stepping stones towards this continual state of evolution, and that we don't give up because of our differences. Giving up leads to the state of regression that we've witnessed, or have read about, many times over the years (i.e. Nazi Germany, Trumpian politics, etc.)... which sets society backwards, and requires a whole lot more work to get things moving in the right direction again...

Sorry for the derail...

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's the exact same phenomenon that Pavlov has mentioned: many of us operate with subconscious ageist stereotypes.

Takes some effort to fight that.
(and obviously one has to notice it first)

Perhaps your position has evolved since you made posts like the one below?

Originally Posted by lio45

There are only two types of people in the world: the ones who are colorblind, and the ones who are racist (i.e. are allowing the skin color of the people they're interacting with to have an impact on their behavior towards them). I'm in the former group.

[urbandreamer]

Do part of our property taxes go towards First Nations? Maybe there should be a 10% tax on all land sales that go directly towards them?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

For what its worth (not much), my wife is racialized (black) and our two children are (unsurprisingly) mixed race. And a significant portion of my career involves practicing human rights law. And I still catch myself being influenced by racial stereotypes from time to time (and no doubt there are times where I'm being influenced by racial stereotypes and I don't catch it).

I don't get defensive about this. It doesn't make me a terrible human being. And society as we know it will not be destabilized if all of us recognize this human frailty in ourselves, others, and our institutions.

It's obviously perfectly fine for you to feel and act this way on your own. More power to you.

The problems begin when what you perceive to be a noble trait in yourself is enforced instead of being voluntary, along with the lack of calibration in the perception of how racist people or institutions might be (speaking generally, not accusing you of doing this). I think it's plainly evident that obsessing over racial and group identity and perceived racist behaviours is not helpful.

I personally can't imagine living my daily life being on guard at all times against committing microaggressions. It sounds nerve-wracking and bloody exhausting. I mean, I've never actually brought up anything in conversation to do with race with the nonwhite people I know and meet. Seems bizarre to me that this would ever be an issue. Do you really have to be on guard to stop yourself from saying, I dunno, "you black guys really...<insert racial stereotype>...don't you?" at the jerk chicken takeout?

I feel sympathy for Muslims in the aftermath of what happened in London (seems likely he was indeed targeting that family for their race/religion) the same way I did after the mosque killings in Quebec, because their intent was clearly to make members of a specific group live that way: remain on guard at all times, we're out here, and you never know when we'll come to get you. That's terrorism.

Where I disagree is how this is best counter-acted. The way forward was clear in the postwar civil rights era in the US: the laws are racist, society is racist, black people are discriminated against and subject to terror because the greater society doesn't really care. It's the one hundredth year anniversary of what happened in Tulsa Oklahoma. Nobody was ever charged for what happened.

That, erm, was definitely a racist society.

The terrorists in Quebec and now, it looks like, London, want a society like that. They want Muslims to feel like blacks used to in the US. But these are isolated incidents by extremists that clearly do not reflect any sort of consensus on the part of greater society or any groups within it. Is there a better way to counter-act this outside of local and federal intelligence? The accusation that what happened in London is because it's a racist city is nonsense. We're not living in a Mad Max war zone of racial conflict, no matter how much the BLM movement last year wished it were so.

"Careful how you talk to nonwhite people." This is not helpful.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It wasn't really until Oka and Elijah Wood where the figurative torch was passed. Canada and Quebec have mostly come to an agreement in the aftermath of 1995 - aside from irritants that fizzle out fairly quickly.

Harper, not Wood?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Harper, not Wood?

Uh, yeah. Oops.

Apparently brain and fingers not quite connected.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by JHikka

'wHy CaN't We HaVe A tHrEaD oN rAcIsM iN cAnAdA???'

Because it turns into the absolute mess that this thread has become. COVID and BLM at the same time last year really was a turning point for dialogue on this forum and really shed light on how specific folks here think. Very enlightening.

Maybe if you and those you cite didn't shit the bed every time someone disagrees with you we could?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Maybe if you and those you cite didn't shit the bed every time someone disagrees with you we could?

It doesn't matter what I or anybody else says - we'll just get the runaround dogwhistle regardless. There's not much point trying to discuss these things here because there's no actual interest in genuine discussion.