East/West LRT through the Downtown

[omro]

Hi there, I was just wondering what people's opinions were for the East/West line.

Should it:

Have both east/west tracks on Main
Have both east/west tracks on King
Have one track on Main and one track on King
Have both tracks on a different east/west artery road altogether

[geoff's two cents]

Both on Main.

The primary reasons would be that Main is the street most in need of a boost, and it has the most lanes for the longest stretch. Main is also closer to the GO station.

I'm not in favor of having one on King and one on Main, as King goes down to two lanes through the international village, the city has no intent of running LRT through Westdale, and because transit is easiest to use when both directions run on the same street.

With the latter reason in mind, it wouldn't be a big deal downtown, but the distance between Main and King is considerably wider at Dundurn, and somewhat ridiculously so on the west side of the 403. This wouldn't matter for myself, but it would make transit less user-friendly for the elderly, the handicapped, etc., who would be less inclined to walk for such distances in inclement weather. Without LRT on King, the street could still be served by non-rapid bus service.

The only major problem with this is the fact that Main would have two less lanes (three, if the city did the logical thing and widened the sidewalks), which - again - brings up the issue of two-way conversion for Main and King, and the whole nasty bunch of problems that go along with that - I'm thinking primarily of the 403 interchanges. In a perfect world, we would either be able to do those conversions, or the city would run LRT between King and Main (George), and go underground at Bay. This would, however, mean buying up property all along the line, demolishing part of the Fortino's plaza, constructing a new bridge across the 403, etc.

In my opinion, that is the only (!) serious difficulty with avoiding the King and Main separation - but having the east and west lines separated by such a distance would make the city's LRT something of a laughing stock among Canada's major cities.

The city has made so many enormous mistakes in the last half century - LRT is something it should definitely do right.

[omro]

My opinion, as I've stated in other threads, is that both tracks for the east/west line should be laid on Main. I've summarised them below, but I might have missed something.

Cost

It would be cheaper to have both lines on the same street.

• It would not be necessary to disrupt two streets and dig up two streets during construction.
• It could be constructed by only one team, rather than two teams working in parallel on two streets, a major saving in manpower and time.
• It would be possible to share stops in each direction, rather than building separate stops on separate streets.
• Signage would only be needed on one street.
• Technology to control traffic lights and the LRT's power system would only be needed on one street.
• More track would have to be laid on King Street than on Main Street.
• It would be cheaper to maintain.

Simplicity and common sense

To have both tracks on the same street would make the most sense.

• Simpler to explain verbally and visually.
• Simpler for tourists and visitors to the city.
• It would be simpler for drivers to navigate.
• The track starts and ends on Main, so why split it in the middle.
• Easier to maintain.

Road Width

Main is a consistently wider road. It doesn't get as narrow as King does in places. Putting LRT on Main would not prohibit an eventual conversion to 2-way traffic, however one LRT track on King could potentially doom that street to 1-way traffic permanently.

Also the two LRT lines will be able to run quite closely together, as having the LRT on fixed tracks allowing the carriages travelling in different directions to pass very closely by each other, saving space overall.

Distance

King Street meanders more than Main Street does. As a result King Street is actually longer from point A to point B than Main. This would result in more track needed to be laid and maintained. It would also result in a slighly longer travel time in one direction than the other, unless the trams ran at differing speeds, which would need to be explained in any literature or timetables.

Investment

Main street needs the investment more than King does, as there are parts of that street which are totally desolate. It has the scope for the greater improvement from LRT. King street will naturally improve as investment into Hamilton increases regardless of whether the LRT is put on it or not.

[raisethehammer]

I agree with your first 4 points.
Investment will happen on both streets regardless of where the tracks lie.
I actually think King needs the investment more...it's got several km of streetwall that needs new life breathed into it.
regardless, your points are bang on.

[BrianE]

Chalk me up for both lines on Main St And keep Main St as one way eastbound. The very second that they throw the switch on the LRT lines they should start converting King St. to 2-way. Or convert King to 2 way while they build the LRT.

[omro]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Investment will happen on both streets regardless of where the tracks lie. I actually think King needs the investment more...it's got several km of streetwall that needs new life breathed into it.

I think you argued my point

Main is desolate. King has the shops.

Any increase in investment into the city, on the whole, will rejuvinate and breathe new life into the shopping district as a byproduct of that investment.

Putting LRT on Main will significantly improve Main and have a trickle down effect upon King. I doubt that it would happen in reverse to the same extent.

[matt602]

I'm torn between both on Main and one on each. The reason I sway toward both on Main is because Main's size is already perfect for both directions while maintaining a decent traffic flow and street parking/bike lanes/etc. I definitely don't think both directions could be handled on King St., especially through downtown between Wellington to about Catherine. It narrows down to 2 lanes Westbound at Wellington, which gets very busy as it is at rush hour.

On the other hand I can't argue with the fact that King has a much better streetscape/streetwall for LRT. Possibly Main St's "parking lot corridor" could turn into some kind of condo boom in certain spots downtown, but King would benefit in a much more fitting, urban way I think.

In the end I think they should both go on Main, and we'll just have to hope there's a decent amount of spillover to King.

[MsMe]

And a real tricky area would be the Delta. And may not even to be able to put this in that area due to it so narrow.

And another tricky area would be going around the traffic circle. Unless they took it down Main St. to Reid Ave. Then along Queenston Rd. Some streets in Hamilton sure aren't laid out well to do other things with for sure.

[flar]

I'm leaning toward having both directions on Main. It's obviously wide enough but it also has the most space for development around it with parking lots, plazas, fast food and gas stations all being candidates for redevelopment. I can imagine a shift where we see some infill rentals along Main in the form of 3-6 storey apartments to accommodate the people displaced by gentrification of older homes. If I was a developer I'd be building medium sized apartments now, even without LRT.

I don't think that LRT will directly help retail. Just because the track runs in front of the storefront won't make it a success. Retail on King will be helped by more people living in the lower city, especially more affluent people. LRT should lead to more residential density along its corridor. Hopefully it will lead to employment along its corridor as well. I think that would really help King St. retail, even if the LRT ran on Main.

[omro]

The only way LRT will directly help retail is by taking people to the retailer, so Eastgate Square Mall will be helped, but that's irrelevant to this part of the discussion. I agree with Flar that having the LRT run past the shops is unlikely to help them. Greater investment on the whole, more money and people in the downtown will help King Street shopping.

Of course all of this is totally academic if no one who is involved in the actual planning and feasibility for the LRT on King/Main is even aware of these points.

[Jon Dalton]

How about both tracks on King and have it LRT-only in the narrow stretch? Cars would be rerouted at Bay and Wellington to follow Main or Wilson streets which would become two-way. Imagine the possibilities for streetscaping the Village area. Just thinking outside the box. As has been mentioned here so many times, there are so many lanes of traffic nearby. The system should be configured to maximize economic spinoff, rather than to preserve existing traffic flow.

[flar]

^^I've thought about that, but I still think taking cars off King even for a small stretch == complete retail death.

[omro]

We have a vote for putting the tracks onto a different street all together, would the voter please put their preferred alternate east/west street route.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by flar

I'm leaning toward having both directions on Main. It's obviously wide enough but it also has the most space for development around it with parking lots, plazas, fast food and gas stations all being candidates for redevelopment. I can imagine a shift where we see some infill rentals along Main in the form of 3-6 storey apartments to accommodate the people displaced by gentrification of older homes. If I was a developer I'd be building medium sized apartments now, even without LRT.

I don't think that LRT will directly help retail. Just because the track runs in front of the storefront won't make it a success. Retail on King will be helped by more people living in the lower city, especially more affluent people. LRT should lead to more residential density along its corridor. Hopefully it will lead to employment along its corridor as well. I think that would really help King St. retail, even if the LRT ran on Main.

My point exactly, when I stated earlier that 2 way conversion is a must.

Slowing down the pace and noise along those one-way streets is necessary to create communities/neighbourhoods where people can exist and co-exist with cars and transit.

I can get from King & Sherman to downtown in 5 or 6 minutes on a bus, what difference is an LRT going to make to my neighbourhood? Having a LRT speed faster, more efficiently and greener along the empty dilapidated storefronts and prostitutes of King Street does nothing for my neighbourhood. 2-way streets would make a difference.

[the dude]

Originally Posted by flar

^^I've thought about that, but I still think taking cars off King even for a small stretch == complete retail death.

an interesting thought but i happen to believe the opposite is true. i think that king succeeds [and i use that term loosely] in spite of the traffic. if done properly i think the IV would fluorish as a pedestrian/transit mall. i mean look at main street. it's a wasteland. why? because of the traffic. at the very least we need to turn king into a two-lane, two-way street...pedestrianisation would be a nice bonus.

incidentally, we need to put LRT on main going both directions. i'm scared sh*tless that we're going to screw this up. this is a big expensive project. in the name of god, do it right the first time!

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

The only major problem with this is the fact that Main would have two less lanes (three, if the city did the logical thing and widened the sidewalks), which - again - brings up the issue of two-way conversion for Main and King, and the whole nasty bunch of problems that go along with that - I'm thinking primarily of the 403 interchanges. In a perfect world, we would either be able to do those conversions, or the city would run LRT between King and Main (George), and go underground at Bay. This would, however, mean buying up property all along the line, demolishing part of the Fortino's plaza, constructing a new bridge across the 403, etc.

You could take main down to two one-way traffic lanes. LRT on main does not mean a forced two way conversion. However, I think that a 2-way conversion for main and King would be very beneficial - and we'd just nbeed to route local traffic to cannon/wilson - and through traffic can suck it up and take the rhv and linc - or the skyway - just like people use the dvp to get around toronto instead of driving up yonge. people will adjust - the only reason main is so busy right now is because the city has built it to accept that level of traffic!

The 403 ramps always come up and as always, I have to say - they are not a huge problem. Regardless of the street direction, these ramps should be converted to stoplights asap. There is no need to have ramps ONTO main nor off of king. So - you put a light at the end of each ramp and cars have to stop and pick a direction to travel. Yes, of course, it requires reconstruction of the ends of the ramps but it doesn't mean brand new bridges.

Just as in toronto where only some streets connect you to the gardiner, only king and aberdeen will get you onto the 403 - and main stays as a 403 off ramp terminus only (no on ramps from main). it's not as huge an issue as it's made out to be.

Originally Posted by omro

The only way LRT will directly help retail is by taking people to the retailer, so Eastgate Square Mall will be helped, but that's irrelevant to this part of the discussion. I agree with Flar that having the LRT run past the shops is unlikely to help them. Greater investment on the whole, more money and people in the downtown will help King Street shopping.

Having LRT running past the shops will help them. The direct benefit of delivering shoppers to the street is definitely a part of it but more importantly, LRT will spur all sorts of development - especially within "Eyeshot" of the rails. Much of this will be residential and, yes, these people will shop at the shops.

In the core, LRT on main will probably have the same effect on king retail as LRT on king (since they are so close together) but where they are further apart, the street chosen will definitely make a difference.

WHat about putting it on king william through the core? it would be pretty cool. but really, I think main is the best choice - for both directions. we need to avoid separating the lines, no matter what street gets chosen.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

You could take main down to two one-way traffic lanes. LRT on main does not mean a forced two way conversion. However, I think that a 2-way conversion for main and King would be very beneficial - and we'd just nbeed to route local traffic to cannon/wilson - and through traffic can suck it up and take the rhv and linc - or the skyway - just like people use the dvp to get around toronto instead of driving up yonge. people will adjust - the only reason main is so busy right now is because the city has built it to accept that level of traffic!

The 403 ramps always come up and as always, I have to say - they are not a huge problem. Regardless of the street direction, these ramps should be converted to stoplights asap. There is no need to have ramps ONTO main nor off of king. So - you put a light at the end of each ramp and cars have to stop and pick a direction to travel. Yes, of course, it requires reconstruction of the ends of the ramps but it doesn't mean brand new bridges.

Just as in toronto where only some streets connect you to the gardiner, only king and aberdeen will get you onto the 403 - and main stays as a 403 off ramp terminus only (no on ramps from main). it's not as huge an issue as it's made out to be.

I think that interchange is on a schedule to be rehabilitated and rebuilt in the next decade or so. Notice the ramp bridges has those jersey barriers protecting the railings now? They showed up I believe 2 years ago. Those bridges are I would assume close to 40 years old, and reaching the end of their life expectancy. We convert Main & King to 2-way, shut down the interchange for a period of time, and sure Aberdeen from the westbound 403, and York Blvd from the eastbound 403 can sustain the traffic for a year or two while the interchange gets redeveloped to work with 2 way and a LRT line.

I'm sure that interchange, along with the highway 6 northbound interchange are on the list of the MTO for future development. Both involve left exiting ramps, and those are a no-no for the MTO now due to driver confusion and the higher risk for an accident.


I guess we'll see though.

[omro]

Just trying to encourage a few more votes.

Despite some great arguments for and against in other threads, I still prefer the idea of both together on Main.

[Jon Dalton]

I have yet to formulate a solid opinion. Many pros and cons to weigh. Definitely against one-way LRT for any significant length of the route.

[adam]

A little off topic, but I am starting to realize that synchronizing red lights for 40km/hour would not be sufficient to slow down traffic. Every morning I drive my car down King St and watch drivers ZOOM past me at 70-80km/h while there is a red light directly ahead. I usually go 50km/h and arrive at THE SAME RED LIGHT a few seconds after them.

My question to you guys: what can be done to lower speeding, and consequently lower noise pollution and nasty fumes?? How can we get drivers to go 50-60km/h along city streets?