[Saint John] Port Development

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

OK lol you didn't even read my post. Building at the AIM site, which is almost explicitly targeted for a RoRo terminal and additional cranes, would indeed neuter the port. How would people even get in and out? an overpass from Queen St. West? I could not have been more clear that Lower Cove could probably be developed once AIM is gone and the port can use that space. You have this bizarre pipe dream of the port not really working or growing, and affordable housing replacing strategic federal land in a city with thousands of acres of undeveloped, serviced, PDA land. Even if waterfront opens up, by the value of it alone, it should be for mostly market housing.

Don't get me started on Trudeau. It's his fault in the first place. 'Doing something on housing' would start with not importing millions of people in less than a decade, not raising capital gains taxes to the moon, and not implementing expensive environmental standards above and beyond the 2020 building code to unlock 'federal housing money'. If you believe a Q2 2024 announcement that the port will be turned into 5-and-1s at some indeterminate point will make us mentally go back to 2015, you're totally mistaken. Trudeau made the mess. He can't buy his way out of it with Albertan taxpayer money at this point. And don't think I care about Poilievre, all he's good for is taking taxes back down to Harper level and nuking the CBC.

I am totally opposed to the boat lol. The Canadian military is a futile venture that hasn't won a war since Korea. Why do we need a rusty old boat clogging up the harbour to be used as cadet office space? The Brunswicker is a serviceable facility. There is no race to declare every federal facility in the city surplus. Why not just buy or expropriate Brideau's 15% of the Old North End at FMV and build there, where there's already schools, sewers, and streets, if the feds are going to get into residential construction?

There's dozens of posts on here about finding a better use for Lower Cove and for Long Wharf. I've made many of them. Nothing is going to happen until the port can make use of AIM's site, and for the city to make serious progress on Fundy Quay.

There would be ample room for them to expand into the AIM site for a RoRo terminal, additional cranes, WITHOUT neutering the port. I don't have this bizzare dream of the port not growing and developing (your putting words in my mouth, and please don't). Rather, I have this positive idea of the port growing and further developing, while making some room for housing on under-utilized federally owned port land. Also, I never suggested that only public and affordable housing should be built at any of these sites, private investors could certainly be involved, too!

Also, lol @ this entire housing situation being Trudeau's fault. How many times do we hear over and over again that "housing is a provincial issue". Higgs and previous NB provincial governments deserve far more blame for the housing supply crunch in NB than Trudeau and the federal government. Furthermore, it's ridiculous that you seem to think pre 2015 Harper era policy was better, and that you seem to think Harper's CPC's or PP's are fundamentally different on the issue of immigration compared to the Trudeau Liberals. You're trying to distract from the issue by bringing up immigration levels... immigrants aren't the problem, the problem is the lack of housing supply. Every policy initiative that aims to increase the amount of housing is part of fixing that problem... but somehow you think high taxes and the freaking CBC are the problem? Utterly laughable.


Those frigates are an important part of Saint John's history, and getting one back would not only greatly add to the image of the city, and it would also be a tourist draw. It's your negative view that it would be a rusty old boat floating in the harbour. It's my positive opinion that it would be a restored old frigate floating majestically in the harbour, and be something for us all to be proud of, ,regardless of your weirdly unpatriotic opinion of the Canadian military being a "futile venture".

Regardless of the dream to get one of the Frigates back as a floating fixture of Saint John Harbour, there's still room for some housing to go up at the federally owned HMCS Brunswicker property.

As for how people would access residential housing at part of the AIM site, take a look at a map below, there's all kinds of solutions including yours of an overpass, that could be utilized to make it work and provide public access. Not sure why you consider it so wildly unrealistic, especially when the Prime Minister himself is saying it's a good idea to build housing on under-utilized land at Canadian ports. You seem to have this bizarre idea that the Port would be castrated if it only got to take over 60% of the former AIM site with the other 40% being utilized to build some high rise residential with striking views of the Port and Bay of Fundy. It's utter nonsense to suggest the Port couldn't continue on it's growth and development trajectory with only 60% of the former AIM site. The Port would absolutely be able to flourish into the future.


Don't paint me as someone who wants to shut down our port and build public housing in it's place... it's not at all what I'm suggesting, and not at all what Prime Minister Trudeau is suggesting either.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

You’re not allowed to build residential on polluted sites, even if buried under concrete.

What's the risk exactly, if the pollution is fully encased?

Wouldn't AIM be on the hook to remediate the site, then? Or was the long term environmental degradation of the site part of their lease agreement?

Also, there's no reason to believe that the highlighted area on the left in the post above where AIM offices and parking lot are polluted. There's ample room for a few mid rises or high rises there, and the view would be absolutely spectacular. There's an opportunity for mixed use there too, such some office space for the growing port.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by CharlotteCountyLogan

I'm inclined to agree with Adam that there are much better federal sites to build housing on and that building housing on port lands would negativity impact future growth at the port but everybody has their own opinions. Cheers.

I wasn't suggesting AIM was the best site, but rather that it's a distinct possibility. I don't exactly see how it would negatively impact port operations if the Port was to inherit the large majority of the former AIM to do with as they please. There's quite a lot of opportunity to improve the liminal area between the Port and the Lower West Side... I just happen to think housing could be part of the solution to improve these liminal spaces. Cheers!

[sailor734]

I think it's pretty clear that the port has been and will be focusing it's operations/future expansion on the west side. The idea that any property there might be given up by the port is a non starter (and rightly so)

The old sugar refinery site is widely contaminated from what I know. That leaves Long Wharf as the logical site for any future development on port land. You could leave the face of the wharf and a landing area in use for cruise ship overflow and the pilot boat station/ lobster boat area in the slip while still having room for residential buildings set back.

As to the retired Halifax frigate idea.....where to start? It would be wildly impractical in terms of operational issues and hugely unrealistic from a financial POV for it to be given over to a naval reserve unit. It has no historical significance to warrant attempting to keep it intact as a museum ship like HMCS Sackville or HMCS Haida. Even if it did, Saint John wouldn't be the place as I believe we are too small economically to support such a venture long-term. Keeping old ships afloat is wildly expensive.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I think it's pretty clear that the port has been and will be focusing it's operations/future expansion on the west side. The idea that any property there might be given up by the port is a non starter (and rightly so)

The old sugar refinery site is widely contaminated from what I know. That leaves Long Wharf as the logical site for any future development on port land. You could leave the face of the wharf and a landing area in use for cruise ship overflow and the pilot boat station/ lobster boat area in the slip while still having room for residential buildings set back.

As to the retired Halifax frigate idea.....where to start? It would be wildly impractical in terms of operational issues and hugely unrealistic from a financial POV for it to be given over to a naval reserve unit. It has no historical significance to warrant attempting to keep it intact as a museum ship like HMCS Sackville or HMCS Haida. Even if it did, Saint John wouldn't be the place as I believe we are too small economically to support such a venture long-term. Keeping old ships afloat is wildly expensive.

Building housing on port owned property is not a non starter according to the Prime Minister of Canada. There's more than enough room for some housing at the office and parking lot section of the AIM site alone, which would not interfere with port operations whatsoever. There's going to be all kinds of new jobs at the port as it continues to grow, why not squeeze in some housing where possible?

As for the former Lantic Sugar refinery site, we all know it's contaminated, but that's not a good reason for it to remain completely unoccupied and vacant into the future! Bioremediation is absolutely worth the cost, and something that all three levels of government should help fund, especially since Lantic Sugar seemingly got off scot-free. (and how messed up is that?!?!) I do agree that Long Wharf is the best, most logical site for housing to be built on port property; however, it's certainly not the only piece of port property where housing could be developed. A few high rises can fit a lot more people within a smaller footprint, than a bunch of low rises or townhouses right?

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Regarding the ship, Sailor. Do you seriously think the Halifax-class frigates have no historical significance to Saint John? I'd argue they have immense historical significance to Saint John, and would be tourist draw. I looked up your comparisons to the HMCS Haida or HMCS Sackville, and found some interesting details regarding the extensive federal funding for the maintenance cost of those museum ships.

"In 2018, the HMCS Sackville underwent CAN$3.5 million in federally funded repairs at CFB Halifax."

&

"In 2002, at the urging of Hamilton, Ontario MP Sheila Copps, Parks Canada purchased HMCS Haida from the provincial government and towed her (with great difficulty) from her Ontario Place dock to a shipyard at Port Weller for a $5 million refit to her hull."

Maybe have a look at other museum ships around Canada and the United States, before you're so quick to say Saint John is "too small economically" to support such project, Sailor! There's quite a few significant museum ships around Canada and the US in places far smaller than the Saint John Region. Regardless, I wouldn't say Saint John, Canada's oldest city, with the third largest port, and largest oil refinery in the country is too small economically to support support such a project, anyways. Once again, I feel like you're a shining example of Saint Johnner's reverse exceptionalism in action! Few Canadian cities have shipbuilding histories that rival Saint John's history of shipbuilding; would you really rather see all the frigates scrapped than have one lone vessel be preserved and appreciated in Saint John, even if it was a federally funded project?

You're not wrong that there are some very significant costs with keeping ageing ships afloat...... but what if there was a place for it where it didn't have have to float at all...... like some sort of dry, dock? There's surely nowhere in Saint John to match that description AND fit the entire ship......oh wait.

[JakeNB]

Why don’t we start a new thread called Saint John Fantasy Projects and move discussion of warship museums, harbour ferries and 40 story towers there?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Why don’t we start a new thread called Saint John Fantasy Projects and move discussion of warship museums, harbour ferries and 40 story towers there?

Great idea, maybe you can start the thread!


I really have to admit, now that I see it visualized, I'm absolutely convinced it's a great idea to build a mixed used residential skyscraper on the site of AIM's soon to be former office building.

Not only would it be a massive shot in the arm to solve the housing crisis, and help revitalize the West Side, it would look cool as hell and create a lot of buzz for Saint John.

Such a building would not have to interfere with port operations, whatsoever. Rather, such a building could actually enhance their operations. The port could use the bottom and top floors of the building for office space and operational usage, while the rest would be residential.

Having a 360° birds eye view of the Port's West Side operations, along with the ability to see their other operations across the harbour, and even out into the Bay of Fundy would be a tremendously useful asset to their operations. Moreover, it would be a navigational aide for ships coming into the port.

Such a project could really put Port Saint John and the City of Saint John on the map, and it would be quite a symbolic final nail in AIM's coffin.

Here's the before:





and here's the after:





Many of you tried to say building any sort of housing on the former AIM would interfere with port operations, but looking at this birds eye view of the port, with the container shipping taking well over 85% of the footprint of the former AIM site, and the building being connected with by an overpass from St. John street... I'd challenge any of you to come up with a cogent argument to prove such a structure would somehow interfere with port operations (keeping in mind the operational use for the port in terms of office space, temporary housing for crews, and especially the enhanced observational and logistical efficiencies that would be afforded by an observation deck operations centre at the top of the structure).

AIM's been in many people's back yard for far too long. I can't imagine there being any reasonable NIMBY opposition to a skyscraper being built on top of AIM's former office building, with the the port taking over the rest of the former AIM site to further expand their container footprint. I'd still like to see a little more of the former site given up for housing, but I thought I'd make a point with one really big building built on a really small portion of the AIM site. As for who might fund such a project, there's quite a few options, but I think the guys over at DP World might know a few people involved in the construction of skyscrapers.

Hope we can all keep on striving for bigger and bolder solutions, and try to not shoot every wild idea down so quickly!

[FromMaine]

I wouldn't pick this hill to die on for this topic!

You don't see many ports that have this type of arrangement-- I can't say for fact none do (theres a lot of ports out there) but it's not an ideal setup. Since SJ is in expansion mode, as already mentioned, land will be used wisely for port growth and not housing.

Maybe this can be revisited in many years, but for now you need not look further than Montreal or Halifax, who have no space to expand their ports and are looking 40 miles upstream (Montreal) or a competitor is looking to build a new port just around the corner up in Cape Breton. Take the lessons learned and preserve the land for future port growth.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by FromMaine

I wouldn't pick this hill to die on for this topic!

You don't see many ports that have this type of arrangement-- I can't say for fact none do (theres a lot of ports out there) but it's not an ideal setup. Since SJ is in expansion mode, as already mentioned, land will be used wisely for port growth and not housing.

Maybe this can be revisited in many years, but for now you need not look further than Montreal or Halifax, who have no space to expand their ports and are looking 40 miles upstream (Montreal) or a competitor is looking to build a new port just around the corner up in Cape Breton. Take the lessons learned and preserve the land for future port growth.

The port is pretty huge as it is right now... my proposal has the port taking over more than 85% of the former AIM site, which was taking up almost 30% footprint of the port's West Side operations to operate a glorified junk yard on prime real estate.

There's no more room for the port to expand into the west side without expanding their footprint into a residential neighbourhood that's been terrorized by AIM's disruptive, dangerous operations for over a decade now.

Do you really think that small remaining piece of land where the AIM office sits now is more valuable to squeeze in a few more cans, than it could be utilized to build a mixed use skyscraper with office space and a logistics observation deck? It would be a mixed use structure, not just for housing, but also for enhancing port operations. Maybe take a closer look at the size of the piece of land the structure would be built upon, it's minuscule compared to the entire footprint of the port.

It's certainly not a hill I'm willing or trying to die on, but it's certainly a discussion I think we should be more open to having. If the Port takes back more than 85% of the AIM site, why shouldn't we look at building a serious project on the remaining portion of the site directly adjacent to the residential neighbourhood?

It's not binary, the port can continue on it's impressive growth trajectory, AND be a part of solving the housing crisis for the residential neighbourhood which hosts it's important economic presence in our great city. Again, considering how the port could utilize such a structure for operational usage, it could be one of those rare cases of a win-win. Not only would such a structure help with the housing crunch, and enhance port operations, it would create a more positive transition between the port and the residential neighbourhood which hosts it.