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  #601  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2011, 10:47 PM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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How can you come up with a solid plan when so many people on the right equate HSR with communism/euro-socialism and/or a complete useless waste of money? Also, that it is supported by the hated Obama?

I think they appear to have a hatred for it. No logical argument would work to sway their minds. Appears people who live far from the cities or HSR stations only think about their patch of land and not about the health of the entire urbanized nation nor its global competitiveness. The US would have HSR years ago if it wasn't such a large landmass IMO.
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  #602  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 1:04 AM
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The best work on why the US doesn’t have HSR is New Departures by the political scientist Anthony Perl, which, coincidentally enough, I just finished reading last night. Long story short: rail’s basically a policy orphan in the United States and Canada. This is due in large part to the fact that our railways were private enterprises and our roads and airports public, and that rail was seen as a stagnant, declining mode. Furthermore, while Japan, France and Germany were able to renew their rail sectors by investing in new high-speed infrastructure, in the US we thought we could get away with running faster trains (namely Metroliners) on existing infrastructure. Even if, on paper, the Metroliners were as good as or better than the old 0-Series Shinkansen sets, in practice they were severely hampered by the age of the infrastructure. Furthermore, infrastructure modernization—especially in Japan and France—went hand-in-hand with organizational modernization, which never happened here—our rail policy and operational culture carries a lot more baggage from the early twentieth century. It’s a fascinating book (if somewhat dry at times) and I highly recommend it.

Anyway, a lot of skepticism is to be expected—it’s still a comparatively new mode for the country, and shifting resources to HSR and just brining it into the political dialogue is a major break from the past (Perl’s book was written in 2002, when there was hardly any support for new intercity rail investments to speak of, especially compared to today), and it’s understandable that there’d be pushback. And one of the most pro-HSR members of the Republican caucus, Mica, is only reliable on wanting NEC improvements—but again, he’s a conservative and doesn’t want to strike out any new ground, so this is to be expected. And it’s a hell of a lot better than much of his caucus. Although much of the HSR antipathy is rooted in Boehner’s “hell no!” logic, the pushback’s probably something more than that.

I’d also say that at the local level things get less clear—North Carolina has been supporting their rail services for a while, back when they were at the redder end of purple. And Missouri—which I’d describe as purple trending red—has just put in this application. Combined with the support for extending light and commuter rail to suburban Dallas and Salt Lake City, I’d say that the relationship between political party and transportation policy breaks down to some degree at the local level. And from what I remember of one of those radical bills (can’t remember which, only saw it mentioned offhand somewhere) Amtrak’s existing operating subsidy wouldn’t be cut, since no one wants to be responsible for ending the train to Yazoo City or wherever.

Even though it doesn’t matter here—this is SSP, after all, and people come here to relax and kvetch—I’d say that in terms of broader advocacy equating Democrats as wonderful and pro-HSR and Republicans as awful and pro-HSR would be a bad stance—identifying policy initiatives too closely with parties makes the general public suspicious of them and dampens the eagerness of state and local politicians, making ground-level support for rail more difficult. I’d say Robert Cruickshank of the California High Speed Rail Blog sometimes crosses this line, which is his right—it’s his blog, after all, even if he is involved with actual HSR advocacy—but is something which doesn’t make for good strategy in my opinion.
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  #603  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 2:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan View Post
Combined with the support for extending light and commuter rail to suburban Dallas and Salt Lake City, I’d say that the relationship between political party and transportation policy breaks down to some degree at the local level.
Well, that's a bit of a different story... people snarled in congestion on an incomprehensibly-large expressway network are all too happy to vote to tax themselves if they know the money will be spent locally (and not funding a billion-dollar boondoggle in rural Alaska, or something).

Citizens in Los Angeles, Dallas, Denver, and Houston - hardly paragons of progressive transportation policy - have all voted to increase their own taxes for this purpose, in the (somewhat) mistaken impression that better transit will end gridlock. Of course, it does no such thing - it just gives you a faster option if you're personally willing to park your car and take the train.
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  #604  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 3:21 AM
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People also vote for transit because they want options for themselves, even if they typically don't use them, or never use them.
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  #605  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 4:20 AM
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While it’s true urban transit’s another story altogether, I’d hope that greater openness to investing in intra-urban rail would eventually bleed over to seeing the benefits of improved inter-city rail. There are also chances for synergies—some of the improvements to the Cascades line benefit Sounder commuter rail, and in the SLC thread there was speculation about eventually upgrading the FrontRunner tracks to 110 mph standards to provide quicker service to Provo.

Even so, I’d still say there’s a lot more support for intercity rail at the state level, regardless of who’s in power, than at the federal level. Wichita’s been pushing for an extension of the Heartland Flyer, for instance, and I’m pretty sure Kansas would have to chip in to operating costs.
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  #606  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 5:13 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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Originally Posted by tredici View Post
And that's exactly the attitude which will never allow them to change.
I'm sorry, but that is bullcrap.

Do you honestly believe that quite possibly the most insane GOP-controlled House of Rep. in US history (Boehner, Cantor, Paul, etc.) is gonna ever truly accept HSR?

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The more we polarize, the less likely anyone is ever going to be to come together and come up with a solid, supported, plan.
But that's just it, tredici. I don't think we can find common ground with these insane clowns. The problem is that they expect the private industry to pony up and start itself in the US, when really is dumb, considering that the space industry started with help from the government.

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No offense, though, I completely understand your frustration.
None taken. I'm really sorry if I sound like i'm attacking you. I don't mean to. It's just that, in my opinion, there's more than enough evidence to prove to the GOP (particularly the Conservative/Tea Party branch) that High-Speed Rail can be an economic boon to this country if even given the chance.

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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
How can you come up with a solid plan when so many people on the right equate HSR with communism/euro-socialism and/or a complete useless waste of money? Also, that it is supported by the hated Obama?
The ultimate solution is to "eradicate the source". And we all know who/what that "source" is.

Problem is, that would confirm all the Socialism fear-mongering.

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The US would have HSR years ago if it wasn't such a large landmass IMO.
Landmass is completely irrelevant.
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  #607  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 5:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
How can you come up with a solid plan when so many people on the right equate HSR with communism/euro-socialism and/or a complete useless waste of money? Also, that it is supported by the hated Obama?

I think they appear to have a hatred for it. No logical argument would work to sway their minds. Appears people who live far from the cities or HSR stations only think about their patch of land and not about the health of the entire urbanized nation nor its global competitiveness. The US would have HSR years ago if it wasn't such a large landmass IMO.
I think it's possible. Excuse me for being optimistic. The former Governor of Alabama, Bob Riley (a Republican), was the only one (seemingly) in the state government that had an interest in keeping HSR options a reality in the future of the state. When the state DOT suddenly decided it didn't want to pay the money to remain in the Southeastern HSR organization, he came up with the cash.

So, honestly, I think it's possible. I mean, Black people didn't get to where they are today by hating the opposition. Instead, they continued to believe that they could fundamentally change the country. Now, HSR isn't a Civil Rights issue, but I think ideas can be taken from certain methods used by Civil Rights leadership in how they made headway.

Folks, the way to do this is to ensure that smart politicians are elected. I'm not completely saying "If you can't beat them, join them," but I don't think it's out of the question to support a pro HSR Republican in a a different state. If you have your Democrat that you favor in your district or state, there is absolutely no reason you can't look for a pro HSR Republican that needs help in say Arkansas, Georgia, Florida, or Alabama. I'm not suggesting you send them cash, but maybe you could simply "Like" them on Facebook. Promote them in some way.

I'm a Republican, and I'm pro HSR. Take it, I'm not exactly the most conservative person, but either way, I don't give up on finding a Democrat I trust. I've voted for quite a few Democrats, and when it comes right down to it, it's all about who I trust.

None of us can stand it when people like Sean Hannity say "it's all or nothing" when if comes to who can be in the Republican party. Frankly, I don't think he realizes he's setting the party up for disaster when he says that (that's why I don't watch his show). But, the fact is, what are you going to do when a crazy Democrat gets elected and sets up the Democrat leadership up for disaster? Won't you be wishing you had supported some more reasonable Republicans in other areas of the country? Ones that, while you may not agree with most of the time, are better than some radical Conservatives that could have been elected instead.

Am I completely crazy?
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  #608  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 5:22 AM
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Not at all.
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  #609  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 5:26 AM
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^ Agreed. Again, i'm sorry if it sounded like i was attacking you tredici.
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  #610  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 5:35 AM
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^ Agreed. Again, i'm sorry if it sounded like i was attacking you tredici.
Oh, it's fine, I'm not offended. I understand everyone's frustration. Democrats are gonna be angry, and frankly I feel betrayed that the people on my side of the aisle can't even open up to the idea that HSR is a viable solution, even in the South. But, then again, haven't we all felt betrayed by our politicians at some point...

EDIT: Happy 1,500th post to me!
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  #611  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 11:39 PM
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Here is an interesting story, regarding CSX's position on HSR.

Quote:
Jacksonville-based CSX's Ward says passenger trains don't make money

By Lisa Caruso
Bloomberg News

NEW YORK — CSX Corp. "can't be part of" President Barack Obama's rail vision because passenger trains don't make money and high-speed trains don't belong on freight tracks, Chief Executive Officer Michael Ward said.

"I'm a corporation. I exist to make money, OK?" Ward said Wednesday in an interview at Bloomberg's New York office. "You can't make money hauling passengers, so why would I want to do that? That wouldn't be fair to my shareholders." CSX is the third-largest major freight railroad in the U.S. by revenue.

If CSX were to advocate for high-speed rail, he said, "it's then 'why aren't you donating part of your infrastructure to that?' which I can't do and be true to my obligation to my shareholders."

While moving more people by train might make sense for society, letting passenger trains traveling faster than 90 miles per hour share tracks with freight trains doesn't make business sense, said Ward. CSX owns 21,000 miles of track east of St. Louis.

Obama has made building a national high-speed passenger rail network a priority, and Congress has devoted more than $10.5 billion to the program since it was created in 2009.

Putting high-speed passenger trains on freight lines is not practical because "the curvature and the elevation of the freight rail" tracks cannot support trains operating at speeds higher than 90 mph, Ward said. Those trains should run on separate tracks, which may cost "tens of billions, if not hundreds of billions" of dollars to build, he said.

CSX and New York are in a dispute over the state's plan to provide passenger service between Albany and Buffalo with trains going as fast as 110 mph. CSX will not allow trains traveling faster than 90 mph on its tracks, citing potential damage.

Railroads such as Union Pacific, the largest freight rail company by revenue, are working with states to upgrade their tracks for passenger trains traveling as fast as 110 mph.

Ward said another concern for CSX is that freight trains, which operate at 45 to 50 mph, may need more time to stop and pull over if passenger train speeds increase, causing disruption to its operations.
http://jacksonville.com/business/201...#ixzz1IsqVcHQU
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  #612  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2011, 11:48 PM
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Well, I'm reluctant to ascribe a bad attitude to CSX, but they have a point. 110mph trains place a lot of wear and tear on tracks, especially in curved segments like those found on the Empire Corridor in certain places.

Illinois only managed to convince UP to allow 110mph service to St. Louis because Illinois agreed to take on most of the responsibility for maintenance, and legal liability for any potential accidents (even those involving freight trains). The agreement also took many years to hammer out... I remember HSR plans being put forward back in the late 90s. UP had plenty of time to figure out how to cover their ass under all potential circumstances. In other areas of the country, UP's been extremely resistant to any attempts to use their track or right-of-way, largely because of the maintenance and liability reasons.

Note that CSX's resistance to high-speed intercity service is NOT a resistance to slower commuter service. CSX has been very cooperative in the Northeast as cities and states have introduced commuter lines.
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  #613  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 12:07 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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The USA doesn't do rail, remember?

That is why they have proposed cutting all the rail funds from the new budget.
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  #614  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 12:38 AM
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Can’t really argue with CSX (or BNSF, UP, NS, CN and whoever else is involved) about this either—if the state wants to run fast services, it has to put in its fare share for track upkeep and maintenance. I’m less sympathetic, though, towards them when it comes to sharing ROW with all-new tracks—modern freight typically doesn’t need the full space it inherited, and the distances they want for 110-mph rail (and I’ve heard about CSX also wanting concrete barriers between existing and new tracks further up on the Empire Corridor) seem unreasonable—if the Twentieth Century Limited and freight could operate next to each other in the 1950’s, I don’t see any reason why a train carrying intermodal freight can’t be next to a quick passenger train.

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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Note that CSX's resistance to high-speed intercity service is NOT a resistance to slower commuter service. CSX has been very cooperative in the Northeast as cities and states have introduced commuter lines.
They did put up a big fight over the upgrading of the MBTA’s Framingham-Worcester line, though. I can’t recall the exact situation (and it’s probably locked behind a paywall at the Globe). Even though ownership of the line will soon be transferred to the state of Massachusetts (if it hasn’t been already—the changeover was scheduled for 2011, but I can’t remember when), they still wanted complete immunity from any accident. Can’t recall exactly how it was all settled out in the end, though, but CSX either got complete immunity or would only be liable in exceptional, very-hard-to-prove cases.

Also, can we keep the discussion focused on substantive discussions of the technical and policy aspects of improving the United States’s intercity passenger rail network and away from whines about the Republicans, conservatives, etc.? I’m in agreement with a lot of you about the state of our politics, but the exasperated, low-content exclamations are getting a little tiresome.
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  #615  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 6:33 PM
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I'm sorry, but when HSR & Amtrak is one of the first thing to cut from the Republican budget proposal, you can see how there is no way HSR can get very far in the USA. They down right hate it just as much as they hate PBS.

Obama shouldn't even bother announcing HSR funding when there is no hope to get it done with this irrational HSR hating opposition. I guess Republicans don't care about improving the lives of millions of urban/suburban area Americans and instead would prefer to promote the use of coal burning energy plants, cut educational TV viewing options, and promote sprawl and car use as long as those tax-breaks hold and big multinationals make profits.

Republicans only care about big business, individual use of cars + highway widening and tax breaks and hardly anything about advancing a society into the future. They have destroyed the country for years and now the USA is 10+ years behind most of the developed world in terms of infrastructure - transit, bridges, rail, road quality in cities, etc

Typical response from a republican on CNN recently: I don't remember the name, but when asked about infrastructure spending, his reply was something like this: our roads are fine, it's only in NYC that they are bad. His only response about infrastructure was roads. Typical, conservative one track mind. Also, why the hell is the USA's premier city and gateway for foreign tourism and finance , NYC, left with crappy roads? And this is not an outrage? Oh, I forgot, republicans don't really care about cities. Only suburbs and rural areas count. Maybe someone should point out to him that our cities are vitally important parts of our image to the world. Of course, they don't care about that either, as America is 'exceptional' and doesn't care about what other countries do or say.

I'd be fine with the republicans if they actually cared about this country as a society and had a more level view of investment domestically and less religious dogma.

The republican image for the country is Houston, need I say more.

Last edited by aquablue; Apr 8, 2011 at 6:56 PM.
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  #616  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 7:46 PM
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Houston? You mean that city in Texas with a skilled workforce, growing alternative energy sector, world-renowned medical research center, residents who speak ninety languages, growing light rail network, and lesbian mayor?

This country is more complicated than you give it credit for.
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  #617  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 10:03 PM
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The republican image for the country is Houston, need I say more.
I never think of a city when I think of the Republicans. I think of yokels in the sticks.
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  #618  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2011, 12:53 AM
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I never think of a city when I think of the Republicans. I think of yokels in the sticks.
Maybe suburbs as well as sticks, but I can't think of a large city run by politicians in the vain of the national GOP.

Houston itself hasn't had a Republican mayor since 1982, and has been at the vanguard of a certain strain of liberalism for years. The suburbs are another story (Tom Delay keeping light rail out of a city he didn't even represent by gutting the funding over and over).

I do understand Houston in its form as a Republican ideal though, even if they haven't run the place in decades.
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  #619  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2011, 1:21 AM
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Maybe suburbs as well as sticks, but I can't think of a large city run by politicians in the vain of the national GOP.
post war suburbs and the sticks are equally useless in my book.

And for those who don't understand the Houston thing, it's mainly about the lack of zoning and the huge roads. The Texas culture just adds to the perception.
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  #620  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2011, 4:26 PM
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Here’s the HSR funding situation, as discerned by a couple of (well-informed) commenters on the California High Speed Rail Blog:

Quote:
Alan F Reply:
April 9th, 2011 at 6:50 am

That is what I’m thinking. The FY11 appropriations bill that almost made it through the Senate last December (didn’t get voted on because of the need to have a 60 vote super-majority to do almost anything last year) had $1 billion for HSIPR, which was down from $2.5 billion that was in the earlier House appropriations bill. Since you can’t cut $1.5 billion from $1 billion – well, in most places – my take is that the FY11 amount will be $1 billion for HSIPR. Better than zero, but not nearly enough.

The Senate FY11 appropriations bill last December also had funding for TIGER – $600 million IIRC – and increased capital funding for Amtrak above the FY10 amount. The TIGER grants covered a range of transit, commuter, and freight rail projects that benefited Amtrak and transit interconnections to intercity passenger rail. So how did TIGER and Amtrak fare in the budget deals – for a fiscal year that is already HALFWAY over??

It would also be good to confirm that there is no rescission language in the budget deal for the unobligated HSIPR & TIGER stimulus and FY10 funds.
Quote:
YesonHSR Reply:
April 9th, 2011 at 7:31 am

I think you’re correct in that the FY 11 never was confirmed as the funding levels are back to 2010… and this is where they cut that 1.5 billion from.. Obama probably went along with this because all he ever wanted was 1 billion for this fiscal year plus the fact the Florida monies returning will possibly lead to 3.4 billion for high-speed rail this year… not too shabby but sure would’ve been nice with the extra 1.5…. of course Republican House is playing this up as is stated in their press release a big whopping 1.5 billion when trillions are being spent elsewhere…ie they proposed 7 billion increase in the defense budget their last CR … that woud almost equal that ARRA entire appropriation for high-speed rail.

Last edited by Beta_Magellan; Apr 9, 2011 at 4:27 PM. Reason: code
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