Halifax Stadium Discussion

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

The post office site would be perfect and much better than willow park...

I really cant see that happening.......
1) Canada Post's location would cost a huge amount to obtain...and demolish.
2) Canada Post would then have to re-locate to another locale...costing even more to build...
3) that all adds put to a sum that could ad a huge percentage of additional cost to the total compared to using a vacant or currently underutilized site.
4) all of these on peninsula site solutions ad to the already horrific traffic problems.....even if everyone rode to an event via Metro Transit.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

I disagree "Young Street" is far from any sort of comparison....New England is far away from Boston, Washington Redskins actually play in Maryland, the new Meadowlands is in New Jersey where both the Jets and Giants play, McMahon, Commonwealth, CanadInns, the exceptions of course are McGill, Skydome, BC, IvorWynne.....for the most part older already in place or serving other audiences...(ie: Skydome - Jays).
Heck,...even Moncton built on the outskirts.....

Simply put... today for costs and ease of construction Stadiums are either built on decaying land inside the cities or outside the cities on less expensive larger tracts of land. In HRM there really is little choice.....
Although I do like the work done by fenwick on the drawing board....it seems like a traffic nightmare and the site is simply too tight...even with demolishing millions of dollars of buildings (young or almon)
For me at least the location answer is either along the 102 or on the Dartmouth side in Shannon park , Burnside, or Dartmouth Crossing....it all works for me....

I just want it built now!!!!!!

It seems as though you have a preference for sites along the highway. I don't have a problem with your preference, however stating that current stadium locations are mainly suburban is simply not based on fact. The locations that you mentioned above were chosen to support your argument. But even then you dismissed the ones that don't fit your point of view - Rogers Centre (Skydome), BC Place, Commonwealth Stadium is only 1.5 miles from downtown Edmonton (about the distance to Young and Windsor). There are also many that you chose to ignore - a few new ones Heinz Field in Pittsburgh, Lucas Oil Dome in Indianapolis, Ford Field in Detroit (they moved out of suburban Pontiac), M&T Bank Stadium in Baltimore, and many more (about 2 out of 3 NFL stadiums are within walking distance of the downtown core of the cities that they represent - my definition of walking distance is a 2 -3 mile radius).

Hopefully Halifax will chose a stadium location in the near future. However, the people making the selection should consider a few possible sites and do an extensive survey of people in the HRM to see which location they are most apt to go to. This choice shouldn't be taken lightly since it could be the difference between a successful venue and an unsuccessful venue.

PS: There are some advantages to the Kearney Lake Road area that you mentioned previously - there is a quarry that would be good for a sunken bowl stadium so it could probably be built at a reasonable cost and the land would be cheap. If a rapid transit Park and Ride facility could be built in that area for residents of Bedford and Sackville then it would make even more sense. But it seems as though there is space available closer to Halifax - near the Mainland Commons or even slightly further south closer to the Bayers Lake shopping area. Isn't there is a bus terminal planned for this area on Lacewood Drive? If there is space in the West Mall area then this would have much better public transit connections (bus transit is still mass transit). Still my personal favorite location is the Halifax Forum/DND Willow Park area.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

I really cant see that happening.......
1) Canada Post's location would cost a huge amount to obtain...and demolish.
2) Canada Post would then have to re-locate to another locale...costing even more to build...
3) that all adds put to a sum that could ad a huge percentage of additional cost to the total compared to using a vacant or currently underutilized site.
4) all of these on peninsula site solutions ad to the already horrific traffic problems.....even if everyone rode to an event via Metro Transit.

Well that's the point of this discussion is to see what others don't in an idea. I agree with you - there would be unseen costs to both the CFB Windsor and post office site. I'd even guess there may be environmental issues with the CFB site considering that they have done a lot of vehicle maintenance over the years there so you would have to compare it to an active service station in a way and check for soil contamination. If there is; that could set back any attempt for something on the site for month possibly years because of the need to reclamate.

The more I think about it; the more I think we should focus the stadium on being an iconic feature and I'm slanting (again) back to Shannon Park.

My computer at home is currently being upgraded, but I want to try to come up with a theoretical land use plan for the area to show how the building could be an iconic feature if encorporated into the area well. From my perspective; if the building were near the centre of Shannon Park, I'd want lower scale mixed use residential along the shore line, with a boardwalk and ferry terminal. Then there would be a bus bay at the stadium and the taller residential around it.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

PS: There are some advantages to the Kearney Lake Road area that you mentioned previously - there is a quarry that would be good for a sunken bowl stadium so it could probably be built at a reasonable cost and the land would be cheap. If a rapid transit Park and Ride facility could be built in that area for residents of Bedford and Sackville then it would make even more sense.

I was just thinking about this site. That is the old Standard Paving quarry, now owned by Lafarge. That is a huge site. I was there years ago and it is deceiving how far back that goes.

The problem is that it is getting very residential there and there are some very expensive McMansions just across the street on the lake. They would scream bloody murder.

The other site I wonder about is the old Maritime Steel property at the foot of Victoria Rd extension where Windmill Rd intersects. That looks like a big property though I dunno for sure.

[Empire]

The area around Wallace Heights is certainly large enough for a stadium. There could even be a waterfront component. Is this DND land?

Wallace Heights:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...16522&t=h&z=16

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Well that's the point of this discussion is to see what others don't in an idea. I agree with you - there would be unseen costs to both the CFB Windsor and post office site. I'd even guess there may be environmental issues with the CFB site considering that they have done a lot of vehicle maintenance over the years there so you would have to compare it to an active service station in a way and check for soil contamination. If there is; that could set back any attempt for something on the site for month possibly years because of the need to reclamate.

The more I think about it; the more I think we should focus the stadium on being an iconic feature and I'm slanting (again) back to Shannon Park.

My computer at home is currently being upgraded, but I want to try to come up with a theoretical land use plan for the area to show how the building could be an iconic feature if encorporated into the area well. From my perspective; if the building were near the centre of Shannon Park, I'd want lower scale mixed use residential along the shore line, with a boardwalk and ferry terminal. Then there would be a bus bay at the stadium and the taller residential around it.

If Shannon Pk was the site....it would be pretty simple to place a ferry terminal there....it was planned that way for the Commonwealth Games bid. Lots of land for some parking and bus terminals and future development for hotels etc etc...

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Empire

The area around Wallace Heights is certainly large enough for a stadium. There could even be a waterfront component. Is this DND land?

Wallace Heights:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...16522&t=h&z=16

Empire....that area of Wallace Hghts is the former housing for the Shannon Pk base area....on your google map the area to the left is basically abandoned and is held by Canada Lands....the only draw that I dont like is the close by Generating Plant (ugly and spews ash/dust from time to time....) its an eyesore.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I was just thinking about this site. That is the old Standard Paving quarry, now owned by Lafarge. That is a huge site. I was there years ago and it is deceiving how far back that goes.

The problem is that it is getting very residential there and there are some very expensive McMansions just across the street on the lake. They would scream bloody murder.

The other site I wonder about is the old Maritime Steel property at the foot of Victoria Rd extension where Windmill Rd intersects. That looks like a big property though I dunno for sure.

Keith
Wrong quarry....the one I'm talking about is running along the 102 highway towards Bayers Lake....its kind of hidden but runs between Kearney Lk Rd and Bayer Lake Shopping area....big stone wall by the driveway and paved road off Kearney...the Maritime Steel building and property is still in use....in Burnside.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It seems as though you have a preference for sites along the highway. I don't have a problem with your preference, however stating that current stadium locations are mainly suburban is simply not based on fact. The locations that you mentioned above were chosen to support your argument. But even then you dismissed the ones that don't fit your point of view - Rogers Centre (Skydome), BC Place, Commonwealth Stadium is only 1.5 miles from downtown Edmonton (about the distance to Young and Windsor). There are also many that you chose to ignore - a few new ones Heinz Field in Pittsburgh, Lucas Oil Dome in Indianapolis, Ford Field in Detroit (they moved out of suburban Pontiac), M&T Bank Stadium in Baltimore, and many more (about 2 out of 3 NFL stadiums are within walking distance of the downtown core of the cities that they represent - my definition of walking distance is a 2 -3 mile radius).

Hopefully Halifax will chose a stadium location in the near future. However, the people making the selection should consider a few possible sites and do an extensive survey of people in the HRM to see which location they are most apt to go to. This choice shouldn't be taken lightly since it could be the difference between a successful venue and an unsuccessful venue.

PS: There are some advantages to the Kearney Lake Road area that you mentioned previously - there is a quarry that would be good for a sunken bowl stadium so it could probably be built at a reasonable cost and the land would be cheap. If a rapid transit Park and Ride facility could be built in that area for residents of Bedford and Sackville then it would make even more sense. But it seems as though there is space available closer to Halifax - near the Mainland Commons or even slightly further south closer to the Bayers Lake shopping area. Isn't there is a bus terminal planned for this area on Lacewood Drive? If there is space in the West Mall area then this would have much better public transit connections (bus transit is still mass transit). Still my personal favorite location is the Halifax Forum/DND Willow Park area.

I like the mainland common area too.....but my thinking is the best use of land and location at the lowest possible cost.....I know many would want this to be a "centre piece" type of attraction....but right now unless someone throws a big pile of cash at this cost is going to be a factor...the commonwealth games people that I'm in contact with say they had a 50 million figure...plus plus....for all the extras at the stadium site.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Empire....that area of Wallace Hghts is the former housing for the Shannon Pk base area....on your google map the area to the left is basically abandoned and is held by Canada Lands....the only draw that I dont like is the close by Generating Plant (ugly and spews ash/dust from time to time....) its an eyesore.

Wallace Heights and Shannon Park are two separate areas. Shannon Park is where the Commonwealth Games bid proposed a stadium. The abandoned PMQ's were proposed to be the athelete's village. After the games, the village was slated to become affordable housing. (excellent plan) The PMQ's are still vacant. Wallace Heights is on the north side of the 111 and has active housing. The spewing smoke stacks are closer to the proposed Commenwealth Games site at Shannon Park. Much of the flyash from the stacks has been mitigated by the use of natural gas instead of bunker-c for the generators at Tufts Cove.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The other site I wonder about is the old Maritime Steel property at the foot of Victoria Rd extension where Windmill Rd intersects. That looks like a big property though I dunno for sure.

Probably a viable site, but then why not just opt for the Shannon Park lands. It is more visible, creating a landmark stadium, can be accessed directly from the Circ./MacKay, and any weather related issues would be identical.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Empire

Wallace Heights and Shannon Park are two separate areas. Shannon Park is where the Commonwealth Games bid proposed a stadium. The abandoned PMQ's were proposed to be the athelete's village. After the games, the village was slated to become affordable housing. (excellent plan) The PMQ's are still vacant. Wallace Heights is on the north side of the 111 and has active housing. The spewing smoke stacks are closer to the proposed Commenwealth Games site at Shannon Park. Much of the flyash from the stacks has been mitigated by the use of natural gas instead of bunker-c for the generators at Tufts Cove.

Well I think logistically Shannon Park makes alot of sense...but still think its an ugly location......a great view up the harbour but......thats about it...

[phrenic]

Originally Posted by Empire

The spewing smoke stacks are closer to the proposed Commenwealth Games site at Shannon Park. Much of the flyash from the stacks has been mitigated by the use of natural gas instead of bunker-c for the generators at Tufts Cove.

The plant has burned natural gas nearly 95% of the time for the past few years and they've got some heavy duty particulate matter and GHG emission controlling equipment set up to filter nearly all of the fly ash out.

Most of what now comes out of the stacks is just steam. I'd be more concerned about noise coming from the plant than anything else.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by phrenic

The plant has burned natural gas nearly 95% of the time for the past few years and they've got some heavy duty particulate matter and GHG emission controlling equipment set up to filter nearly all of the fly ash out.

Most of what now comes out of the stacks is just steam. I'd be more concerned about noise coming from the plant than anything else.

With proper sound proofing of windows; any residential could be fine on Shannon. The stadium (if built there and at anywhere near full capacity) would probably create way more noise from cheering fans than the plant would!

[phrenic]

Actually, now that I look at the map and see the distance between the plant and Shannon Park, I don't think there would be any issue with sound.

The plant's main turbines are all enclosed of course and the two outside turbines are on the other side of the property.

[fenwick16]

If a site requires additional costs for transit facilities (that might be underused) and other infrastructure then the savings on land cost will be lost. Parking in an isolated location will be an additional cost also (since there won't be parking lots in the vicinity that can be used). The acreage required for the Halifax Commonwealth Games (planned for Shannon Park) was much greater than it would be for an individual stadium (since an aquatics centre and athlete's village will not be required for just a stadium alone).

I posted two maps at the same scale of the Halifax Forum area and the Baltimore M&T Bank Stadium area (this map also shows the Camden Yards). The scale bars are shown as 500 feet and 100 meters (in the lower right hand corner of the maps). The on-site parking for M&T Stadium is on a number of parking lots surrounding the stadium. There are also park and ride locations throughout the downtown area - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Gamed...irections.aspx .

A list of NFL stadiums with links to each can be found at the following site - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eague_stadiums . The first few on the list are located on the outskirts of the represented cities and then most of the remainder are 2 - 3 miles from the downtown core (I count 22 stadiums out of 30 that are within walking distance of the downtown cores). These are very large stadiums of about 70,000 seat capacity and still land was found close to the downtown core (close to public transit and in a central location). A map of CFL stadiums can be found at the following website - http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/can...ll/canada/cfl/ .

Some large US university stadiums are located in isolated areas on the fringe of their respective cities/towns but they are located next to the universities that they represent so they have a large spectator base within walking distance.

Baltimore's M&T Stadium area


Halifax Forum area

[hfx_chris]

I think somebody mentioned this site before, but I don't recall much being said, so I'll mention it again. What about the lands between Kempt Road/MacKay Bridge approaches and the container terminal?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I think somebody mentioned this site before, but I don't recall much being said, so I'll mention it again. What about the lands between Kempt Road/MacKay Bridge approaches and the container terminal?

Do you you mean this location http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rf9...%20NS%2C%20B3K? I think somebody said that this is meant for future expansion of the container terminal. In the meantime, this might be good for a surface parking area. I don't think this would be good for a stadium though - even though it is on the peninsula, it is quite isolated, I don't think there are good public transit connections, few amenities such as restaurants in the area and this is a very unattractive location.

A stadium would require about 10 acres (less if expansion is not required) with parking on existing lots in the vicinity of the stadium. I think location is one of the most important factors for a successful stadium - so if the chosen site would cost $10 - $15 million then what central areas with good public transit, road access and walkability exist?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

If a site requires additional costs for transit facilities (that might be underused) and other infrastructure then the savings on land cost will be lost. Parking in an isolated location will be an additional cost also (since there won't be parking lots in the vicinity that can be used). The acreage required for the Halifax Commonwealth Games (planned for Shannon Park) was much greater than it would be for an individual stadium (since an aquatics centre and athlete's village will not be required for just a stadium alone).

I posted two maps at the same scale of the Halifax Forum area and the Baltimore M&T Bank Stadium area (this map also shows the Camden Yards). The scale bars are shown as 500 feet and 100 meters (in the lower right hand corner of the maps). The on-site parking for M&T Stadium is on a number of parking lots surrounding the stadium. There are also park and ride locations throughout the downtown area - http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Gamed...irections.aspx .

A list of NFL stadiums with links to each can be found at the following site - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eague_stadiums . The first few on the list are located on the outskirts of the represented cities and then most of the remainder are 2 - 3 miles from the downtown core (I count 22 stadiums out of 30 that are within walking distance of the downtown cores). These are very large stadiums of about 70,000 seat capacity and still land was found close to the downtown core (close to public transit and in a central location). A map of CFL stadiums can be found at the following website - http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/can...ll/canada/cfl/ .

Some large US university stadiums are located in isolated areas on the fringe of their respective cities/towns but they are located next to the universities that they represent so they have a large spectator base within walking distance.

Baltimore's M&T Stadium area


Halifax Forum area

This is great! I really believe this site has the greatest potential. Its also amazing how close it is to the bridge and bedford highway. Logistically, it beats any other location and I like the centralization of sports facilities (Forum complex, etc).

[halifaxboyns]

Is Windsor Park and option too? I don't know what they are doing with Windsor park; but if there is potential to dispose of both sites; it could work well too. Especially since the RCMP will be moving soon.