General STO News and Rapibus System

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Harls - how will I know it's you now that your avatar is not this guy:



I guess I'll just have to rely on your magical mod abilities...

Ditto.

[Radster]

The new revised schedule is out, and looks like the petition from last fall did NOT work! Residents in East Gatineau, Buckingham, Masson etc will be in most part commuting for 45-60 minutes more per day with the Rapibus compared to now with the Express Bus system.

BIG FAIL as its anything but a RAPIbus, everyone calling it the LENTIbus.

Not to mention, many people will now be switching to taking their cars, and in turn the traffic on HWY 50 will get even worse.

http://www.petitions24.net/forum/67178

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Radster

The new revised schedule is out, and looks like the petition from last fall did NOT work! Residents in East Gatineau, Buckingham, Masson etc will be in most part commuting for 45-60 minutes more per day with the Rapibus compared to now with the Express Bus system.

BIG FAIL as its anything but a RAPIbus, everyone calling it the LENTIbus.

Not to mention, many people will now be switching to taking their cars, and in turn the traffic on HWY 50 will get even worse.

http://www.petitions24.net/forum/67178

Agreed they should have kept the express buses from at least the eastern part of the region for now...it may boost ridership from old Gatineau west, but will depress ridership in east Gatineau.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Radster

The new revised schedule is out, and looks like the petition from last fall did NOT work! Residents in East Gatineau, Buckingham, Masson etc will be in most part commuting for 45-60 minutes more per day with the Rapibus compared to now with the Express Bus system.

BIG FAIL as its anything but a RAPIbus, everyone calling it the LENTIbus.

Not to mention, many people will now be switching to taking their cars, and in turn the traffic on HWY 50 will get even worse.

http://www.petitions24.net/forum/67178

45-60 minutes MORE per day? Is it really that big a change? How long is the commute now? Regardless, I doubt that many will actually start driving as I can't imagine many people who take the bus from there have a realistic choice of driving.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

45-60 minutes MORE per day? Is it really that big a change? How long is the commute now? Regardless, I doubt that many will actually start driving as I can't imagine many people who take the bus from there have a realistic choice of driving.

This is really an unacceptable argument. Rapid transit needs to speed up service and not do the opposite. And if somebody's destination is not downtown, they will switch to cars or car pooling if we make transit unacceptably slow. There is a limit to commute times that people will consider acceptable.

Commuting is a competitive market place. We have heard many instances where extended commutes have forced people into their cars and it is really hard to get them back once they make that decision. Believe me, because I am one of them.

If we want our transit system to be attractive, we have to measure it against travel times by car. The closer we get to car travel times, the more effective it will be.

[Aylmer]

Actually, the Rapibus is pretty fast - you can do 14km in just about 14 minutes.

The problem, is that the Rapibus skimped out on the only part that really mattered: DOWNTOWN (sound familiar?).

It takes as much time to get from Lacrosse to Montcalme (14km) than it does to get from there to the Rideau Centre (4km)... Considering that most people make their way to the cores, it isn't a recipe for success.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

45-60 minutes MORE per day? Is it really that big a change? How long is the commute now? Regardless, I doubt that many will actually start driving as I can't imagine many people who take the bus from there have a realistic choice of driving.

It won't likely have a short-term effect on ridership levels as people aren't going to go out and buy another car right away simply because of this. Also, downtown parking rates are unlikely to go down and for STO express pass users the premium fare is being eliminated so it will actually cost them less to go to work on the bus.

In the long-term though it may have an impact - perhaps more people will start using the Rapibus park and ride lots instead of walking to the bus stop from their house.

Also, someone made the comment about anyone not going downtown will not be using the bus anymore, but those people aren't using the bus anyway because all of the express routes in Gatineau sector, Buckingham and Masson-Angers are "portes fermées" as soon as they leave their catchment areas. So you actually drive by places of employment on your express bus at the moment but you can't get off there. So it's a rather moot point. At the moment, almost no one east of the Gatineau River uses transit to commute to jobs within this area (say from Buckingham to the area around Maloney), but with the Rapibus they could. Also, there is a huge amount of employment in Hull around St-Joseph, St-Raymond, Boulevard de la Carrière, and also Montcalm and Crémazie that at the moment is only accessible (realistically) by car. Rapibus opens up transit commuting to there as well.

There are problems for sure but it is not all bad news.

[Cre47]

I think the 45-60 minutes more a day is exaggerated a bit. The morning commute shouldn't be a big difference. The afternoon it will really depend on the connections though hopefully a bit of time is cut off with fewer buses on Rideau and Wellington. Maybe they should have followed the same routing as the 100 during the afternoon to avoid the Hwy 50 bound mess on Maisonneuve. I wish there would be more afternoon trips though on some of the local routes.

Speed limit is only 70 from what I've read while on some parts of the Transitway it is even as high as 90. Maybe because of the many at-grade intersections they cannot go higher than 70. I wish some spots the speed limit would be higher.

The Plani-Bus though needs improvement. They don't necessarily provide the faster trips, actually in a lot of cases too.

[Cre47]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, the Rapibus is pretty fast - you can do 14km in just about 14 minutes.

The problem, is that the Rapibus skimped out on the only part that really mattered: DOWNTOWN (sound familiar?).

It takes as much time to get from Lacrosse to Montcalme (14km) than it does to get from there to the Rideau Centre (4km)... Considering that most people make their way to the cores, it isn't a recipe for success.

Actually in the afternoon, it can take as much as 30 minutes and even worse from Rideau Centre to TDC or Place D'Accueil. Hence the need to have a bus only lane on Wellington between the portage Bridge and Sussex Drive and prohibit motorists to turn right onto Laurier Street from the Portage Bridge (and/or to add or lengthen a turning right-lane) and more importantly prohibit tour buses to stop on Wellington during rush hour.

[Aylmer]

Well, as someone commented on the Radio-Canada story, the STO schedules are more suggestion than fact Yeah, for all the better non-peak service, simpler routes and WiFi in the buses, I don't see the Rapibus being a success, especially at $300M.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, the Rapibus is pretty fast - you can do 14km in just about 14 minutes.

The problem, is that the Rapibus skimped out on the only part that really mattered: DOWNTOWN (sound familiar?).

It takes as much time to get from Lacrosse to Montcalme (14km) than it does to get from there to the Rideau Centre (4km)... Considering that most people make their way to the cores, it isn't a recipe for success.

History repeats itself. I don't see a solution for downtown coming anytime soon. Possibly 30+ years, just like Ottawa.

Is it really that fast, 14 kms in 14 mins? That's 60 km/h. Metro systems are usualy between 30-40 km/h. The Gatineau estimate sounds impossible. Are they not counting the buses stopping at stations? Or traffic lights?

[Aylmer]

I just double-checked it and it seems like it changed to 17-21 minutes (depending on when you leave) and 15 minutes to Downtown. So it has an average speed of 42km/h on the ROW, but it slows down to a sluggish 16km/h (speed of a leisurely bike ride) on a good day or 8km/h (a brisk walk) on a bad one.

Considering that the same error was made just across the river with the Transitway Downtown segment, HOW DID NO ONE AT THE CITY SEE THIS COMING???

What worries me is that they'll make the same mistake in the west of the city by building the Rapibus on the highway north of Aylmer (25% longer than current routes + 1 transfer) which will join up with the current Rapibus for the 8-16km/h segment. I would not be happy if we built a 300-million dollar system to make my commute longer and encourage sprawl to the north.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Actually in the afternoon, it can take as much as 30 minutes and even worse from Rideau Centre to TDC or Place D'Accueil. Hence the need to have a bus only lane on Wellington between the portage Bridge and Sussex Drive and prohibit motorists to turn right onto Laurier Street from the Portage Bridge (and/or to add or lengthen a turning right-lane) and more importantly prohibit tour buses to stop on Wellington during rush hour.

This is very true, although on Wellington going west much of the problem is caused by STO buses themselves, and west of Bank on Wellington, it's *mostly* STO buses causing the congestion problem.

At the moment, on Wellington with the STO buses you have the same situation as on Albert and Slater with OC Transpo: every single peak-period bus going to every single neighbourhood in the city is there at the same time.

The switch to Rapibus for all of the area in Quebec east of the Gatineau River is supposed to reduce the number of buses on Rideau-Wellington by 25 to 30%., as neighbourhood (express) routes east of the Gatineau River will no longer exist.

This is not the case for routes going to Aylmer and Hull, pending a rapid transit solution for these areas of Gatineau.

But it should alleviate STO bus traffic and congestion on Wellington to a significant degree. At least I hope.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is very true, although on Wellington going west much of the problem is caused by STO buses themselves, and west of Bank on Wellington, it's *mostly* STO buses causing the congestion problem.

...

The switch to Rapibus for all of the area in Quebec east of the Gatineau River is supposed to reduce the number of buses on Rideau-Wellington by 25 to 30%., as neighbourhood (express) routes east of the Gatineau River will no longer exist.

...

But it should alleviate STO bus traffic and congestion on Wellington to a significant degree. At least I hope.

That's very true. But the STO should definitely have dialogues with the city of Ottawa (which, as I've been told, they haven't) to create reserved bus lanes on Wellington; especially with the reduced number of buses, they could probably shave over five minutes off the time it takes to cross downtown and GPS-activated lights could actually make taking the bus advantageous.

But alas, until they actually make any efforts to accommodate it, the Rapibus will be very ineffective in making public transportation competitive with the automobile or improving any kind of mobility between the cores and Gatineau.

EDIT: That's actually not completely true: the bike path along the corridor will go a long way to making Gatineau more accessible by bike from mid-April to November.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

That's very true. But the STO should definitely have dialogues with the city of Ottawa (which, as I've been told, they haven't) to create reserved bus lanes on Wellington; especially with the reduced number of buses, they could probably shave over five minutes off the time it takes to cross downtown and GPS-activated lights could actually make taking the bus advantageous.

.

I am pretty sure these discussions have taken place in the past but the main stumbling block is the NCC which does not want to "deface" the prestigious parliamentary parade on Wellington with a bus lane. Of course, as we all know the status quo is no better, and on summer afternoons Wellington in front of the hill is already a mess of slow-moving or immobile cars, city buses, trucks and also tourist motorcoaches...

[harls]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ditto.

Sorry.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Considering that the same error was made just across the river with the Transitway Downtown segment, HOW DID NO ONE AT THE CITY SEE THIS COMING???

That's because when it comes to rapid transit, Ottawa and Gatineau are Dumb and Dumber.

The very creation of Rapibus is pretty much a tripartite failure of coordination and creativity between Gatineau/STO, Ottawa and the NCC.

What is particularly galling about Rapibus though is that it was justified partly on the basis of the "single seat ride" (just as was the Transitway) but it hasn't even opened and they are already switching it to a hub-and-spoke model of operation - just as it would if it ran as LRT.

[Radster]

I have a question regarding the Rapibus. Right now, all buses on Maissonneuve use the bus lane between HWY 50 and Portage Bridge. As of next week, once Rapibus starts running, in the PM, all the 100 and 200 busses will be turning left from Maissonneuve onto Allumetieres. Every 6 minutes there will be 3 articulated busses turning left, in heavy stop&go Maissonneuve traffic. They will have to make their way from the bus lane on the right, to the turning lane on the left in a congested Maissonneuve. Thats problem 1, how is STO planning addressing this?

Problem 2 is Allumetieres between Montcalm Rapibus station and Maisonneuve. Are they installing bus-only lanes on Allumetieres in this section? Are they planning to restrict parking during the rush hour on this section? Because this section of Allumetieres does get clogged up Ottawa(East)-bound in the AM and Gatineau(West)-bound in the PM.

I guess the above 2 problems are exactly why Aylmer is saying that the portion between Montcalm station and downtown Ottawa has such a horribly slow average speed.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by Cre47

I think the 45-60 minutes more a day is exaggerated a bit. The morning commute shouldn't be a big difference. The afternoon it will really depend on the connections though hopefully a bit of time is cut off with fewer buses on Rideau and Wellington. Maybe they should have followed the same routing as the 100 during the afternoon to avoid the Hwy 50 bound mess on Maisonneuve. I wish there would be more afternoon trips though on some of the local routes.

Speed limit is only 70 from what I've read while on some parts of the Transitway it is even as high as 90. Maybe because of the many at-grade intersections they cannot go higher than 70. I wish some spots the speed limit would be higher.

The Plani-Bus though needs improvement. They don't necessarily provide the faster trips, actually in a lot of cases too.

Its not exaggerated. People who take the 88 express now, are saying this! It takes them 25 minutes to get downtown in the AM using the 88, but with Rapibus, it will take them 20 minutes longer in the AM via two busses.
It takes them 35 minutes to return home in the PM on the 88, but with the Rapibus it will take them 60 minutes. Thats 45 minutes more per day, and that is the best case scenario, there are others who will be commuting up to 60 minutes longer, bases on their study of the newly released schedules.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Radster

I have a question regarding the Rapibus. Right now, all buses on Maissonneuve use the bus lane between HWY 50 and Portage Bridge. As of next week, once Rapibus starts running, in the PM, all the 100 and 200 busses will be turning left from Maissonneuve onto Allumetieres. Every 6 minutes there will be 3 articulated busses turning left, in heavy stop&go Maissonneuve traffic. They will have to make their way from the bus lane on the right, to the turning lane on the left in a congested Maissonneuve. Thats problem 1, how is STO planning addressing this?

Problem 2 is Allumetieres between Montcalm Rapibus station and Maisonneuve. Are they installing bus-only lanes on Allumetieres in this section? Are they planning to restrict parking during the rush hour on this section? Because this section of Allumetieres does get clogged up Ottawa(East)-bound in the AM and Gatineau(West)-bound in the PM.

I guess the above 2 problems are exactly why Aylmer is saying that the portion between Montcalm station and downtown Ottawa has such a horribly slow average speed.

Point of clarification - Rapibus route 100 which will start in Vieux-Hull won't be going up Allumettières to the Rapibus ROW eastbound in the PM peak. It will be going down Allumettières (southbound), right on Maisonneuve to Portage and then to the Terrasses and then up Montcalm to join the ROW.

So most of the 100's routing will be in the opposite direction of peak traffic.

But you are correct that the 200 which is the Ottawa-only Rapibus route (with no stops at Portage) will be turning left at Allumettières in the PM peak.

And yes, buses only lanes are planned for Boulevard des Allumettières.