Italian neighborhoods in North America

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by edale

This could just be my personal experiences tainiting reality, but I think Pittsburgh feels very Italian. My paternal grandmother's family immigrated from Sicily in the early 1900s and settled in Pittsburgh. They had 8 kids and ran a produce market somewhere on the South Side. All of the kids stayed in Pittsburgh except for one who went out to SF in the 60s and never returned.

Growing up, I went to Pittsburgh pretty often to have family get togethers- almost always hosted at little family-owned Italian restaurants, which there are seemingly a million of in the Pittsburgh area. Weddings were also very Italian. It seemed like being Italian was more or less normal and engrained into the general culture rather than some novelty or distinct subculture, like Italians might be in a city like Cincinnati. Italians also have a strong presence in nearby Youngstown, OH, which is basically halfway between Cleveland and Pittsburgh. The whole area has a large Italian presence, and there are/were decent Italian enclaves in the smaller Ohio and West Virginia river towns like Wheeling, WV and Steubenville, OH.

Cleveland, by contrast, feels less Italian to me, even though I really like their Little Italy, and it's probably better than Pittsburgh's. Cleveland just feels a bit more racially diverse overall to me.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. And like I said earlier, I'm not suggesting that the Italian ancestry influence in Pittsburgh isn't apparent -- it definitely is. I guess it just seems less prominent to me than it does in other places, and that might be due to the Pittsburgh area's fractured layout of neighborhoods and towns within SW PA, which might water it down a bit. It just feels different to me than it does in places like Youngstown, Buffalo, Erie, and other parts of upstate NY... where it seems every arena, stadium, library, courthouse, park, public bldg, etc. has an Italian name added to it. Overall though, I think it's likely just my own bias/experience contributing to my thoughts.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JManc

It's recent as a mainstream American phenomenon but Italian food has been a staple within the Italian American community since the start. 100 years ago, people also didn't go out to eat very often; they cooked from home and Italians tended to be clustered in ethnic enclaves until the 50's when they started assimilating and scattering around.

Right, I'm not saying there was no Italian-American food. It just wasn't ubiquitous until the 1960's or so. Prior to that it was kinda "exotic" ethnic food. And people didn't eat out much until a few generations ago anyways.

And NY style slice shops didn't proliferate until well after WW2. There were many NY pizzerias, of course, there are a few coal oven places dating to the turn of the century, but the typical foldable slice joint isn't more than 60 years old or so.

[pj3000]

Yeah, Italian restaurants were certainly present in American cities since the early 1900s, but they were generally restaurants that served their Italian immigrant/Italian-American neighborhoods. It started to become more of a thing postwar for WASPy Americans to experience “ethnic food” and dine out at the typical red checkered tablecloth, red sauce Italian restaurant.

[jd3189]

And then Olive Garden was born long afterwards

But for the subject of this thread, I think there's a sizable portion of Italian Americans in South Florida, in the Treasure Coast area at least ( Palm Beach, Martin counties). I remembered growing up there and only realizing afterwards that many of my elementary white classmates and teachers were either Jewish or Italian.

They and/or their families probably cane down from the NE and Midwest to "escape snow" or whatever, the same story for many transplants. There's no classical urban neighborhood that they all congregate to but you can sense their presence in certain areas of suburban/exurban Palm Beach County like Royal Palm Beach and also in Stuart (Martin).

For Florida in general, I think Ybor City in Tampa was an Italian neighborhood originally. It was also very Cuban as well.

[Docere]

While Italians in Canada are more associated with the big cities of Toronto and Montreal, many of the mining and industrial communities of Northern Ontario have longstanding Italian communities as well.

Copper Cliff, the "Little Italy" of Sudbury:

https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/i...2019-1.4642293

https://mineconnect.com/copper-cliff...rs-birthplace/

https://www.sudbury.com/lifestyle/it...r-cliff-228924

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Moreover, Italian immigration in Brazil has a very strong rural character, while in the US is completely associated to big cities.

This isn't entirely true. Louisiana had a large Sicilian population migrate to Tangipahoa Parish and open fruit/vegetable farms. New Jersey and Northern California also had Italians in the countryside, many of them growing produce.

Of course, the areas they chose were always in the hinterlands of major cities... since the produce needed to be trucked (without refrigeration) to buyers in the city.

http://www.louisianafolklife.org/LT/...a_italian.html (LA)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4182793...o_tab_contents (NJ)
https://soundingsmag.net/2019/05/16/...o-agriculture/ (CA)

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by ardecila

This isn't entirely true. Louisiana had a large Sicilian population migrate to Tangipahoa Parish and open fruit/vegetable farms. New Jersey and California also had Italians in the countryside, many of them growing produce.

Of course, the areas they chose were always in the hinterlands of major cities... since the produce needed to be trucked (without refrigeration) to buyers in the city.

Yeah, and it's actually not true AT ALL that "Italian immigration... in the US is completely associated to big cities".

From an outsider's perspective that may be the case (likely because of Hollywood mafia movies set in either NYC or Chicago), but Italians immigrated to wherever there were jobs, whether it was a big city, medium city, small city, or town. In Pennsylvania alone, there were/are significant presence of Italian ancestry in literally hundreds of small mining, mill, and factory towns throughout the state, as well as in farming communities (northwestern PA and across rural NY state come to mind especially for the fruit farms and vineyards).

West Virginia (which has zero big cities) has a robust history of Italian immigrants who brought their mining experience from Italy to the coal mines of the Mountain State. Northern WV was a major center of Italian immigration in the early 1900s. There were prominent Little Italys in Fairmont, Clarksburg, and Morgantown. I've been to the WV Italian Festival in Clarksburg... it's one of the largest in the country.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Actually, not entirely true.

Restaurants were a city thing; prior to the post-war years, most Americans were renters (home ownership really took off after WWII, fueled by the GI bill and the market created by developers that convinced Americans that the suburbs were the place to be). In the 19th Century/early 20th Century, people who moved to the cities for work were living in very basic studio rentals or crammed into tenements, where there were often no cooking facilities. So, many people got their meals at restaurants.

Here's an article I read recently:

Why Did So Many Restaurants Stay Open During the 1918 Pandemic?

I'm not saying they didn't I'm saying not very often..especially compared to now and your article even states there were a fraction of restaurants compared to the population a century ago. Also, not every immigrant lived in cramped tenements. Places like NYC and Philly were extreme examples. Those that did, it probably was a transitional period while family was still back in the old country; my great-grandfather worked in the Garment District for a couple of years before bring over everyone else from Italy and then moved upstate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ardecila

This isn't entirely true. Louisiana had a large Sicilian population migrate to Tangipahoa Parish and open fruit/vegetable farms. New Jersey and Northern California also had Italians in the countryside, many of them growing produce.

Of course, the areas they chose were always in the hinterlands of major cities... since the produce needed to be trucked (without refrigeration) to buyers in the city.

http://www.louisianafolklife.org/LT/...a_italian.html (LA)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4182793...o_tab_contents (NJ)
https://soundingsmag.net/2019/05/16/...o-agriculture/ (CA)

And as JManc can surely attest, central upstate NY has a lot of Italians in small and medium-sized cities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

While Italians in Canada are more associated with the big cities of Toronto and Montreal, many of the mining and industrial communities of Northern Ontario have longstanding Italian communities as well.

Copper Cliff, the "Little Italy" of Sudbury:

https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/i...2019-1.4642293

https://mineconnect.com/copper-cliff...rs-birthplace/

https://www.sudbury.com/lifestyle/it...r-cliff-228924

In the southern part Ontario, Ottawa, Hamilton and Windsor also have decent-sized Italian communities. These are fairly large cities, but you also have some in smaller towns and rural areas of SW Ontario around Windsor where you have agricultural production (like tomatoes and other crops) in places like Leamington, or the Niagara peninsula which also has similar crops and wineries.

This rural implantation of Italians is fairly unique in Canada.

[Crawford]

Windsor has a pretty solid Little Italy, and it's still fairly authentic.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by jd3189

And then Olive Garden was born long afterwards

But for the subject of this thread, I think there's a sizable portion of Italian Americans in South Florida, in the Treasure Coast area at least ( Palm Beach, Martin counties). I remembered growing up there and only realizing afterwards that many of my elementary white classmates and teachers were either Jewish or Italian.

They and/or their families probably cane down from the NE and Midwest to "escape snow" or whatever, the same story for many transplants. There's no classical urban neighborhood that they all congregate to but you can sense their presence in certain areas of suburban/exurban Palm Beach County like Royal Palm Beach and also in Stuart (Martin).

For Florida in general, I think Ybor City in Tampa was an Italian neighborhood originally. It was also very Cuban as well.

If I'm not mistaken, Ariana Grande is a Florida's Italian, right? When I first heard of her, I assumed she was Hispanic.

Originally Posted by ardecila

This isn't entirely true. Louisiana had a large Sicilian population migrate to Tangipahoa Parish and open fruit/vegetable farms. New Jersey and Northern California also had Italians in the countryside, many of them growing produce.

Of course, the areas they chose were always in the hinterlands of major cities... since the produce needed to be trucked (without refrigeration) to buyers in the city.

http://www.louisianafolklife.org/LT/...a_italian.html (LA)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4182793...o_tab_contents (NJ)
https://soundingsmag.net/2019/05/16/...o-agriculture/ (CA)

About San Francisco area, I've heard of Italians running vineyards. Never gave much thought, but I'd assume there would be some rural Italians upstate New York.

But compared to Southern Brazil where millions of Italians (and Germans to a lesser extent) own all the countryside, it's very modest. Down here, they are like German Americans and their endless cornfields in the Midwest.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

If I'm not mistaken, Ariana Grande is a Florida's Italian, right? When I first heard of her, I assumed she was Hispanic.

She's from Boca Raton, which is basically a Jewish-Italian colony of NY-NJ. Her parents are Sicilians from Brooklyn.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In the southern part Ontario, Ottawa, Hamilton and Windsor also have decent-sized Italian communities. These are fairly large cities, but you also have some in smaller towns and rural areas of SW Ontario around Windsor where you have agricultural production (like tomatoes and other crops) in places like Leamington, or the Niagara peninsula which also has similar crops and wineries.

This rural implantation of Italians is fairly unique in Canada.

Re: Niagara region, a lot of Italian immigrants worked on the construction of the Welland Canal in the early 20th century.

[0214685226]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I wonder why Columbus became such a founding figure stateside for someone who didn't land in the continental US (yes, Puerto Rico but that's not typically what many people think of as the archetypal spot to situate a founding event for the US as a nation). I can see him being a bigger deal in Latin America but why in Anglo-America far to the north of where he landed and in duration never overlapping in time with either the colonies that became the US or the Revolution until many generations in a later century?

Enough such that Italian Americans (along with other Americans) started rallying around him as a foundational figure, but less so Italian Canadians who are also English (and French) speaking and have less of a connection to Latin America than possibly even Italian Americans (who for instance often lived with Puerto Ricans and other Latinos stateside in places like NYC). John Cabot could have also been a rallying figure with more a tie to Canada, having landed in eastern Canada, and not too far in time from Columbus, yet he hardly receives much attention in mass media/pop culture relative to Columbus. Neither do the Norse with Leif Erikson though he was earlier than Columbus and North America has plenty of descendants of Scandinavians with lots of pride in their heritage, just like Italians do.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the A in the US of A originates from an Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci. The first known usage of America is from 1507 in honor of Amerigo Vespucci.

Back to Columbus, British Columbia is another place in honor of the great Spanish/Italian explorer of the New World.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Never gave much thought, but I'd assume there would be some rural Italians upstate New York.

But compared to Southern Brazil where millions of Italians (and Germans to a lesser extent) own all the countryside, it's very modest. Down here, they are like German Americans and their endless cornfields in the Midwest.

No, it’s not like it is in southern Brazil, but it’s not like Italians are only largely found in big cities in the US either, as you stated earlier. My post above describes the situation accurately.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by 0214685226

Back to Columbus, British Columbia is another place in honor of the great Spanish/Italian explorer of the New World.

As I posted up-thread, the origin of BC's name is much more convoluted than that: The province is named after the river, which was named after a ship, which was named after a poetic name for the Americas, which came from the British press, who were constrained by law from reporting on parliamentary proceedings and therefore used thinly veiled pseudonyms for various places and people while describing "fictional" debates. So yes, its name ultimately comes from his, but it wasn't named after him or in honour of him.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by 0214685226

Not to beat a dead horse, but the A in the US of A originates from an Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci. The first known usage of America is from 1507 in honor of Amerigo Vespucci.

Vespucci seems like a more prominent figure in South America than North America.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

As I posted up-thread, the origin of BC's name is much more convoluted than that: The province is named after the river, which was named after a ship, which was named after a poetic name for the Americas, which came from the British press, who were constrained by law from reporting on parliamentary proceedings and therefore used thinly veiled pseudonyms for various places and people while describing "fictional" debates. So yes, its name ultimately comes from his, but it wasn't named after him or in honour of him.

Yeah, most of the Columbias/Colombias in the Americas are named so for this reason. Columbia/Colombia was another name for America.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Right, I'm not saying there was no Italian-American food. It just wasn't ubiquitous until the 1960's or so. Prior to that it was kinda "exotic" ethnic food. And people didn't eat out much until a few generations ago anyways.

And NY style slice shops didn't proliferate until well after WW2. There were many NY pizzerias, of course, there are a few coal oven places dating to the turn of the century, but the typical foldable slice joint isn't more than 60 years old or so.

An "iconic" San Francisco dish, which has been around since well before 1900 and eaten by people of many ethnicities, is cioppino, a dish very much like bouillabaise but brought to the city by Italian immigrants who were mostly from Genoa and many of whom came at the time of the Gold Rush. It was widely enough enjoyed that a recipe for it appeared in The Refugee's Cookbook, a fundraising effort to benefit San Franciscans displaced by the 1906 earthquake and fire.

You are confusing what you call "slice shops" for pizza, which were indeed largely a post-WW II phenomenon brought home by troops who served in and around Naples during the war, with Italian peasant/family food which has been served for generations by immigrant families in the US and by restaurants catering to them in their neighborhoods.

One kind of evidence that Italian restaurants aren't just a post-war thing is the differences between East Coast and West Coast Italian restaurant food. Northern Italian food and Italian seafood (from the region around Genoa) is much more common relative to the better known "red sauce" fare in SF and that's because what the local Italians, who did not come from southern Italy and Sicily like so many of those back east, wanted. One unfortunate result of this, though, is that, as someone who grew up back East, I've always found SF pizza kind of inferior.

Cioppino

https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/...recipe-1916710