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  #2101  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 3:39 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
They have said 90 minutes reduction.
...I see the discrepancy between what the minister said and the website. ...
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  #2102  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
This link says that it the average trip times between Toronto and Ottawa (not Quebec) that will be reduced by up to 90 minutes. Is that a typo or am I missing something?
I missed the discrepancy between the website and the minister's speech.
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  #2103  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
This will be big for Ottawa.

Ott-Tor in 2h30 is a huge improvement.

I'm not sure whether Ott-Mtl would be improved at all...
I would caution in assuming 2.5 hrs.

This what the website says:

Quote:
shorter travel times and faster trains that would reduce average trip times between Toronto and Ottawa by up to 90 minutes;
Note what I bolded for emphasis. Average trip times from Toronto to Ottawa is closer to 5 hrs than 4 hrs. So 90 mins reduction would be something like 3.5 hrs.
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  #2104  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
OK... it's something.

Tor-Ott will be the most improved segment: 4h00 to 2h30.

Tor-Mtl will go from 5h00 to 4h15 (assuming that improvement to the Ott-Mtl stretch). Not a big change to travel time, but much higher frequency (and the trips will be via Ottawa).
I expect Tor-Mtl will be slightly slower than that as there will likely be as short (10 min?) layover in Ottawa because of the large passenger volume. New, wider platforms (which are planned) will help reduce that layover time though.

The big gains on Tor-Ott make sense, since the new route will be about 10% shorter than the existing route. When combined with a faster average speed, you get a significantly faster trip.

Ott-Mon will be about the same distance (possibly a touch shorter), so the slight time reductions are from increased average speed.

Tor-Mtl will actually be about 10% further than the existing route, so the time reductions are due to higher average speeds resulting from no freight train interference.

As I have said before, the two big improvements with HFR, which don't make great headlines, are:
  • Increased frequency (from between 5 and 10 trains a day to 15 trains a day). This means you won't have to wait as long for a train, shortening your door to door travel time. This is done by having the Tor-Ott, Ott-Mon and Tor-Mon routes merge into one combined route.
  • Improved on time performance (from 67% to 95%). The scheduled time is meaningless if it frequently ends up being late.
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  #2105  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 4:00 PM
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They seem to have kept the announcement vague enough that they can claim success regardless of the final results.
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  #2106  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 5:19 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
They seem to have kept the announcement vague enough that they can claim success regardless of the final results.
Seems like the entire point of this announcement is to win them the seat that is opening up in Trois Rivieres.....
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  #2107  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I would caution in assuming 2.5 hrs.

This what the website says:

Note what I bolded for emphasis. Average trip times from Toronto to Ottawa is closer to 5 hrs than 4 hrs. So 90 mins reduction would be something like 3.5 hrs.
We'll see. The fastest Tor-Ott trip is about 4 hours right now, so I subtracted my 90 minutes from that. The slower trips are the ones with a ton of intermediate stops, but I think the HFR route will have very few intermediate stops, since it runs along Hwy 7 (where there's not many places to stop).

You're probably right that it will not be as good as 2h30.
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  #2108  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
We'll see. The fastest Tor-Ott trip is about 4 hours right now, so I subtracted my 90 minutes from that. The slower trips are the ones with a ton of intermediate stops, but I think the HFR route will have very few intermediate stops, since it runs along Hwy 7 (where there's not many places to stop).

You're probably right that it will not be as good as 2h30.
I would assume “up to” means comparing the longest trip now with a theoretical shortest trip (probably a nonstop service they would rarely run).
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  #2109  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
We'll see. The fastest Tor-Ott trip is about 4 hours right now, so I subtracted my 90 minutes from that. The slower trips are the ones with a ton of intermediate stops, but I think the HFR route will have very few intermediate stops, since it runs along Hwy 7 (where there's not many places to stop).

You're probably right that it will not be as good as 2h30.
Politicians don't always use apples to apples comparisons. They do the comparison that makes them look best.

The HFR route will be about 400 km, so a travel time of 2h30 would mean an average speed of about 160 km/h, which seems very high considering how windy the old Havelock sub is (they likely won't achieve the top speed of 200 km/h for very long).

One of the old HFR estimates was 3h15, which would make the average speed closer to 125 km/h. By comparison, VIA's 4h00 train, on the current 446 km route, averages closer to 110 km/h (with a top speed of 161 km/h).
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  #2110  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I would assume “up to” means comparing the longest trip now with a theoretical shortest trip (probably a nonstop service they would rarely run).
Given the limited number of potential stops on the route, I suspect there will be much less difference between the fastest and slowest trains than there is today.
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  #2111  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 6:08 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
They have said 90 minutes reduction.

I think they consider Ottawa-Toronto about 4.5 hours

I picture this will shake out to about 3.25 hours with aspirations of 3
The average trip time with delays is higher and this will also reduce delays hence the “up to” 90 minutes. Less delays good of course but I saw 3:45 as the new trip time.
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  #2112  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 7:17 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Less delays good of course but I saw 3:45 as the new trip time.
I hope not. Anything more than 3.5 hrs for Toronto-Ottawa makes Toronto-Montreal run more than 5 hrs, destroying demand for that service.
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  #2113  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 7:24 PM
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Liberals announce plans for new 'high frequency' rail lines from Toronto to Quebec City
Nick Boisvert · CBC News · Posted: Jul 05, 2021 5:55 PM ET


The federal government is moving forward with a plan to build an all-new high frequency rail line connecting Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City.

The proposed lines would reduce travel times between the cities and make trains more reliable, according to plans for the project.

Transportation Minister Omar Alghabra announced the plan to passengers onboard a VIA Rail train travelling from Toronto to Montreal on Monday.

"It will increase frequency for passengers like yourself and transform the connection between these cities," Alghabra told passengers over the train's PA system.

Trains on the proposed line would run at higher speeds than are currently possible. The government is not describing the project as "high speed" rail, however, since vehicles would still fall short of the speeds typically associated with high speed rail networks in Europe and Asia.

At a subsequent news conference in Quebec City on Tuesday, Alghabra said the government plans to launch the procurement process in the fall after consulting with Indigenous communities and the private sector. The government will also engage with partner railways to negotiate dedicated routes in and out of city centres.

"Up to 90 per cent of the new service would run on electricity, contributing to a green economy and creating good jobs," Alghabra said.

The Liberal government has been examining the possibility of high frequency rail along the Toronto-Quebec City corridor since at least 2019, when it launched a special office to work on the project.

Ottawa announced more funding for the project in its recent 2021 budget, headlined by a pledge of $491.2 million over six years to VIA Rail Canada for infrastructure investments.

The budget does not suggest a completion date for the project.

VIA Rail says reliability, speed and frequency would improve

According to VIA Rail, a high frequency rail line operating on dedicated tracks would cut travel times by 25 per cent and improve on-time performance by 95 per cent.

Trains on the line would travel at speeds of up to 177-200 km/h, according to a government news release. The government says that could reduce travel times by up to 90 minutes on some routes, such as Ottawa to Toronto.

Those speeds are faster than the current maximum of approximately 160 km/h for VIA Rail trains. Modern high speed rail lines are capable of at least 250 km/h.


(Rob Easton/CBC News)

VIA Rail says the current congestion and irregular timing of trains is due to passenger and freight trains often using the same tracks.

Barry Prentice, a professor at the University of Manitoba and a former director of the Transport Institute, said that moving passenger trains onto dedicated lines is a reasonable and achievable project.

"Anything that makes the service more frequent and faster is going to attract passengers," Prentice said. "We've got to get more cars off the road and we've got to stop using so many airplanes."

Prentice said construction of a new line based on existing technology could be completed within three to four years, and at a much lower cost than a true high-speed line.

The dedicated line proposed by VIA Rail includes a new line connecting Toronto to Ottawa, and another line connecting Montreal to Quebec City.

Federal projections estimate the amount of trips taken by rail in the Toronto to Quebec City corridor would more than triple, from 4.8 million in 2019 to a projected 17 million by 2059.

The latest map of the project still has passenger trains running on shared tracks between the station in Les Coteaux, Que., and Montreal.

Announcement set for possible battleground riding

Alghabra may provide further details about the proposed line during a news conference scheduled for Tuesday afternoon in Trois-Rivières, Que.

Trois-Rivières is one of the proposed stations on the new line connecting Montreal to Quebec City.

The city is expected to be a battleground riding in the next federal election, since Bloc Québécois MP Louise Charbonneau announced she will not seek re-election. Trois-Rivières has not had a Liberal MP since 1984.

Stephanie Kusie, the Conservatives' shadow minister for transport, described the news as "merely a re-hashed announcement" of funding outlined in the 2021 budget for a project which still does not have a target date for completion.

Kusie said the plan creates "no real progress towards providing this much needed service."

The previous Ontario Liberal government proposed a high speed rail line between Toronto and Windsor in 2018, featuring trains that would have travelled at speeds of up to 250 km/h. That government was defeated just months after announcing those plans and the project has not been revived.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/hig...ject-1.6090930
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  #2114  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Ugh. So they are spending all that money on electrification instead of building out the corridor to be faster.
Have to agree. They just bought new diesel trains. Does this mean they're going to have to purchase an entire new fleet of electric trains for HFR?

Why wouldn't they initially focus on building out the corridor to the highest speed standards possible for the new rolling stock and then focus on electrification later? Seems like it would make more sense to time electrification with the next fleet renewal a few decades from now.
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  #2115  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 8:02 PM
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Have to agree. They just bought new diesel trains. Does this mean they're going to have to purchase an entire new fleet of electric trains for HFR?
No. First of all, the coaches can be used with either electric or diesel-electric locomotives. Secondly, most of the corridor won't be electrified for the foreseeable future, so they will still need the new locomotives on those routes.

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Originally Posted by Hybrid247 View Post
Why wouldn't they initially focus on building out the corridor to the highest speed standards possible for the new rolling stock and then focus on electrification later?
Electrification looks good politically. Having said that, higher speeds require full grade separation and straight track, both of which can be very expensive. The plan seems to be to go for higher speeds where the track is already straight and there are few crossings, and slow it down where it will be more costly to build for higher speeds.
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  #2116  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 8:28 PM
Hybrid247 Hybrid247 is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Electrification looks good politically. Having said that, higher speeds require full grade separation and straight track, both of which can be very expensive. The plan seems to be to go for higher speeds where the track is already straight and there are few crossings, and slow it down where it will be more costly to build for higher speeds.
Yea, it definitely seems politically motivated. The way I see it, the extra couple billions it would cost to electrify could be used for grade separation and track geometry improvements for higher speeds along the corridor. It would undoubtedly be far easier to build higher standard tracks now and electrify later than the other way around, would it not?
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  #2117  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hybrid247 View Post
Yea, it definitely seems politically motivated. The way I see it, the extra couple billions it would cost to electrify could be used for grade separation and track geometry improvements for higher speeds along the corridor. It would undoubtedly be far easier to build higher standard tracks now and electrify later than the other way around, would it not?
Sort of. It does mean that if they do upgrade the track later, they will have to install new catenary in those sections at extra cost. What I don't know is given the high cost of grade separation and straightening track, how many minutes they would be able to shave off of the trip for the couple billion dollars electrification costs.

I am not sure if the electrification of HFR makes total financial sense, but I am not strongly opposed to it either. It will make it appear more modern, which could help its image.
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  #2118  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 9:30 PM
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High speed = new Right of Way and therefore likely expropriation and *much* higher costs. The big strength of the HFR proposal is you get a lot more reliability, a lot more frequency, and a bit more speed for a lot less money than a new rail RoW. We're still talking billions here but not 10s of billions. Grade separation may help a bit with incremental speeds, but in the end the RoW between Peterborough and Ottawa (one of the most critical segments) is through Canadian Shield and thus not very straight. It would need a lot more work to straighten, and a lot more money.
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  #2119  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2021, 9:31 PM
Hybrid247 Hybrid247 is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Sort of. It does mean that if they do upgrade the track later, they will have to install new catenary in those sections at extra cost. What I don't know is given the high cost of grade separation and straightening track, how many minutes they would be able to shave off of the trip for the couple billion dollars electrification costs.

I am not sure if the electrification of HFR makes total financial sense, but I am not strongly opposed to it either. It will make it appear more modern, which could help its image.
Fair points. Guess we'll have to wait for more details to come out to get a better idea of these things.

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Originally Posted by DarkArconio View Post
High speed = new Right of Way and therefore likely expropriation and *much* higher costs. The big strength of the HFR proposal is you get a lot more reliability, a lot more frequency, and a bit more speed for a lot less money than a new rail RoW. We're still talking billions here but not 10s of billions. Grade separation may help a bit with incremental speeds, but in the end the RoW between Peterborough and Ottawa (one of the most critical segments) is through Canadian Shield and thus not very straight. It would need a lot more work to straighten, and a lot more money.
I get all that, but I think it'd be quite shortsighted if we were building HFR without the intention of upgrading speeds further down the road (where reasonably possible), in which case I feel it'd make more sense to optimize track geometry as much as possible now and simply electrify later. As far as I can tell, adding overhead catenary to existing trackage would be far easier than making grade separation and track geometry changes, especially when considering potential service disruptions. In essence, I feel the less track upgrades we need to make later down the road, the better.

Last edited by Hybrid247; Jul 6, 2021 at 9:47 PM.
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  #2120  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2021, 1:00 AM
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High-frequency rail sounds good – but does Via have to run it?

Andrew Coyne, The Globe and Mail
Published July 6, 2021 | Updated 2 hours ago




Be still my beating heart. If news reports are to be believed, the government of Canada is about to build a new “high-frequency” rail line in the Toronto-Quebec City corridor.

“New mostly-electric rail line will get you from Toronto to Montreal 25% faster,” runs the headline on a Toronto Star story, “at speeds of up to 200 kilometres per hour.” It must be true. After all, it’s been “announced.” Right in time for the election.

Not so fast. Read the government’s statement a little closer. “The Government of Canada,” it says, “is taking the first steps in preparing for the procurement process” to build the new train service. Not building the service. Not taking bids on it. Not even preparing to do so. But “taking the first steps” in preparing for it.

These “steps” include “engaging Indigenous groups and communities” along the line, negotiating with municipal transit agencies to use their routes into and out of city centres, and – as if those weren’t enough – “engaging with the private sector to determine capacity, and seek perspectives on the best possible delivery model.”

Translated, they are still trying to line up private capital to finance the project’s construction costs. Currently these are estimated at $4.4-billion; you can guess for yourself how many multiples of that the final figure will come in at, after the inevitable delays, strikes and overruns. The government, similarly, claims the project “could” more than triple annual passenger traffic in the corridor, from 4.8 million in 2019 to 17 million in 2059, but there’s no reason to attach any particular weight to that figure, either.

Give thanks that they are merely talking about “high-frequency” rail, and not the sort of “high-speed” lines common in Europe and Asia, which would require not just adding track here and there, as currently envisaged, but a whole new network. The last time this was seriously studied, in 2009, the costs were estimated at roughly $12-billion in today’s dollars. And that was just for the Montreal-Toronto portion.

But even at $4.4-billion, or whatever it balloons to, the chances of the project breaking even, let alone turning the kind of profit that would attract private-sector interest, would seem slim – at least as long as Via Rail is running it. Year in, year out, the federal passenger-train monopoly covers barely half of its operating expenses from passenger revenue, leaving the taxpayer to pick up the rest.

Even before the pandemic, annual subsidies were running to nearly $400-million a year. That’s not because of the special challenges of serving remote locations across Canada’s wintry expanse, or whatever you’ve been told: 97 per cent of Via’s traffic is in the Windsor-Quebec corridor. True, it loses less money there than on its long-haul routes – about $30 per passenger, versus $500. But it still loses money.

(Why does this matter? Because resources are scarce. And because rail travel is not a public good, the kind of thing that can only be paid for with taxes. Rather, you can charge people for it. If people aren’t prepared to pay for it what it costs to produce, that suggests it provides less benefit to the public than the resources it consumes. The money that pours into Via’s deficits might be better spent on other things.)

There’s no doubt that some of this poor performance is because Via does not own the tracks it runs on, but rather must share the tracks with the freight trains operated by the tracks’ owners. This not only limits the frequency of its service, but the timeliness of it: just 71 per cent of Via’s trains arrived on time in 2019, versus the 90 per cent-plus typical of a well-run railway.

There might well be a case, then, for building more tracks specifically for passenger trains. The question is whether it should be Via – and only Via – that operates them. It would be hard to persuade the public to abandon their cars for the train, even at the subsidized prices Via charges, so long as the service remains so … infrequent. But it’s not a given they will do so even with those expensive new tracks.

What’s needed to stimulate more traffic is not more subsidy, but better service, and the best way to improve rail service, as countries across Europe are discovering, is competition. Railways may be a natural monopoly, but the trains that run on them are not. Even if Via were a paragon of efficient, reliable service, it would make no sense to preserve it from competition. But in view of its actual performance, opening the tracks would seem the missing piece of the high-frequency puzzle.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ave-to-run-it/
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