PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Jawnadelphia]

Originally Posted by Londonee

So wait is this part of the River Walk development? What lot is this? The renders are a bit confusing.

Yeah this is clearly for that triangular odd plot of land directly south of the Riverwalk. I was curious who owned that land, and according to the city it is PMC Property (who also own the Riverwalk buildings going up, and the lot next to Trader Joe's and apparently the lot where the Patriot parking lot is). They own it all!

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Has SEPTA ever thought about building a new station between 15th and 30th St? That area is very restricted from transportation despite being so central.

The logistics make it extremely difficult because the el tracks are surrounded by the trolley tracks. So basically you'd need to rearrange all four lines of track while also trying not to run into issues with neighboring building foundations, gas/water lines, etc.

Maaaaaybe they could find a way to 'replace' one of the trolley stops at 19th or 22nd with an el stop, though. They'd still need to move the trolley tracks to make room for the el stop but there might be just enough room to make it feasible if they really wanted. Of course, would still be crazy expensive so we can safely assume nothing will happen any time soon.

[mcgrath618]

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...61#post8788761

Summers if you could fix that title it would be much appreciated.

[Broadcastthatboom]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Great building. Hope it gets built.

Has SEPTA ever thought about building a new station between 15th and 30th St? That area is very restricted from transportation despite being so central.

While slightly inconvenient, SEPTA does offer free transfers between the MFL and Trolley Lines at 30th, 15th and 13th Street Stations. So if you're taking the MFL and need to get to 22nd or 19th Street Stations, you can transfer to the Trolley to get the rest of the way. And since all 5 trolley lines use the same route from 30th to 13th, you can take any of them to get the rest of the way, so it *shouldn't* be more than a few minutes until one comes through.

Originally Posted by iamrobk

The logistics make it extremely difficult because the el tracks are surrounded by the trolley tracks. So basically you'd need to rearrange all four lines of track while also trying not to run into issues with neighboring building foundations, gas/water lines, etc.

Maaaaaybe they could find a way to 'replace' one of the trolley stops at 19th or 22nd with an el stop, though. They'd still need to move the trolley tracks to make room for the el stop but there might be just enough room to make it feasible if they really wanted. Of course, would still be crazy expensive so we can safely assume nothing will happen any time soon.

Probably 19th, since it's more centrally located between 30th and City Hall?

They could get rid of the current platforms where you stand and wait for the trolley, and replace that section with new trolley tracks so the line would curve/bubble outward just in that area. And then where the old trolley tracks used to be (on either side of the MFL track) they could build a new platform that could be used for the MFL (couldn't be used for the trolleys too since the trolley doors would be facing the wrong direction). It definitely feels more do-able than constructing a brand new station with brand new tunneling and whatnot.

[TK2001]

Added 2301 JFK to my model along with some of the recent developments

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Broadcastthatboom

While slightly inconvenient, SEPTA does offer free transfers between the MFL and Trolley Lines at 30th, 15th and 13th Street Stations. So if you're taking the MFL and need to get to 22nd or 19th Street Stations, you can transfer to the Trolley to get the rest of the way. And since all 5 trolley lines use the same route from 30th to 13th, you can take any of them to get the rest of the way, so it *shouldn't* be more than a few minutes until one comes through.



Probably 19th, since it's more centrally located between 30th and City Hall?

They could get rid of the current platforms where you stand and wait for the trolley, and replace that section with new trolley tracks so the line would curve/bubble outward just in that area. And then where the old trolley tracks used to be (on either side of the MFL track) they could build a new platform that could be used for the MFL (couldn't be used for the trolleys too since the trolley doors would be facing the wrong direction). It definitely feels more do-able than constructing a brand new station with brand new tunneling and whatnot.

I posted about this in the transportation thread, but I think they should get rid of subway-surface lines east of 30th street. they're redundant. then you could use the existing stations at 19th and 23rd streets for the MFL, with some modifications to the platforms. people who use the trolleys to west philly can transfer at 30th.
while we're fantasizing, I would like to see the patco line extend to rittenhouse square, then go up 19th, put a new station at 19th and market under the new MFL station (the trains are going in perpendicular directions so couldn't use the same station), then go up the parkway with stations at logan circle and the art museum.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by Broadcastthatboom

Probably 19th, since it's more centrally located between 30th and City Hall?

They could get rid of the current platforms where you stand and wait for the trolley, and replace that section with new trolley tracks so the line would curve/bubble outward just in that area. And then where the old trolley tracks used to be (on either side of the MFL track) they could build a new platform that could be used for the MFL (couldn't be used for the trolleys too since the trolley doors would be facing the wrong direction). It definitely feels more do-able than constructing a brand new station with brand new tunneling and whatnot.

Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking. The problem, though, is that the entrances from the surface wouldn't be able to reach the MFL (since it's in the middle of the street, basically), and the MFL is so close to the surface that they wouldn't be able to have another level between the surface and the MFL for people to walk down to before descending to the tracks. I can't really put this into words well but I hope what I mean comes across.

Originally Posted by dreadnought

I posted about this in the transportation thread, but I think they should get rid of subway-surface lines east of 30th street. they're redundant. then you could use the existing stations at 19th and 23rd streets for the MFL, with some modifications to the platforms. people who use the trolleys to west philly can transfer at 30th.
while we're fantasizing, I would like to see the patco line extend to rittenhouse square, then go up 19th, put a new station at 19th and market under the new MFL station (the trains are going in perpendicular directions so couldn't use the same station), then go up the parkway with stations at logan circle and the art museum.

While I think they should run them east of 30th, I think they should look into closing the 13th street station (for both the MFL and trolleys) since the MFL stops at 15th, 13th, and 11th. It's just redundant (and I say that as someone who used to commute from that station) other than being the start/end of the trolleys - but we don't really need the station open for that, they could just expand the trolley platforms a bit at 15th.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

While I think they should run them east of 30th,

why, though? it's ridiculous that one of the busiest lines (if not *the* busiest line) has no stations on west market until 30th street, and that people have to transfer to a trolley, which has less capacity, to get anywhere between 15th-30th.
the trolleys' duplicate service might be ok to take some of the excess from the MFL if it didn't prohibit MFL service where it is needed most. but it is back-assward as currently configured: west market = central business district, but is served by low-capacity trolleys instead of the high capacity MFL. if you could have both, economically, then fine, but if you can't, then it makes more sense to eliminate the lower capacity lines in favor of the high capacity one. and it could be done relatively cheaply, all you'd have to do is reconfigure the platforms at two existing stations.

[Vince_]

I'd agree that the MFL should take priority in having stops at 19th and 22nd instead of the trolley but the MFL tracks are surrounded on either side by the trolley tracks and the MFL is directly under the street. So I think they'd have to sink the trolley tracks for a platform or just get rid of the trolley from 30th eastward and make people transfer to MFL at 30th.

Here you can see the MFL tracks surrounded inside of the trolley tracks:

[New2Fishtown]

Fantasy transit planning is fun, but the reality is that there are many, many obstacles beyond the obvious engineering challenges of fitting a station in that location. First is that this is not perceived by any entity or person that matters to be anywhere near the highest transit priority for the region. People want KOP Rail, the Navy Yard extension, and numerous other large ticket items before anything like this (including the remarkably expensive idea to extend platforms along the existing MFL to allow longer trains so that the line can increase its capacity). Secondly, there's no money to complete any of these things, let alone enough to check off the other projects and then get to this. Reasons for this are myriad, chief among them being that our federal government doesn't give a crap about transit and would rather allocate billions to widening highways. Assuming money became available through some stimulus bill or policy change of heart, this project hasn't been studied or partially designed, leaving it far from shovel ready. And furthermore, the criteria feds typically look for include things like serving underserved areas and population, and this site is within one of the best-served transit locations in the region if not the country, so you'd be hard pressed to make the case that there's a need to double down.

The bummer realities being what they are, it would be wiser to invest in improving the experience that exists. As mentioned up thread, transferring lines is not a crazy thing to ask of people, and something that urban commuters do worldwide all the time without thinking twice. Make the trolley-to-MFL transfers painless/pleasant/reliable, and make sure trolleys really do arrive every 30 seconds at peak periods, and many people would do it (a LOT of people already do, if you've ever tried to make one of those connections at rush hour). The harder sell is Regional Rail rider to trolley since the walking distance from one to the other is necessarily farther. The planned underground connection from the main 30th Street station into the SEPTA station would improve this condition vastly at that end, and renovated concourses (also already budgeted and planned) would make walking from Jefferson to 13th a pleasant experience at the other.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Vince_

I'd agree that the MFL should take priority in having stops at 19th and 22nd instead of the trolley but the MFL tracks are surrounded on either side by the trolley tracks and the MFL is directly under the street. So I think they'd have to sink the trolley tracks for a platform or just get rid of the trolley from 30th eastward and make people transfer to MFL at 30th.

this is what I'm saying: reconfigure the platforms at 19th and 22nd; extend them over the existing trolley tracks, and raise them where you would board MFL trains. This would require terminating trolley service at 30th street.

Originally Posted by Vince_

Here you can see the MFL tracks surrounded inside of the trolley tracks:

great photo, thanks for posting. shows my point.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by New2Fishtown

Fantasy transit planning is fun, but the reality is that there are many, many obstacles beyond the obvious engineering challenges of fitting a station in that location. First is that this is not perceived by any entity or person that matters to be anywhere near the highest transit priority for the region.

It doesn't have to be the top priority. But it is something that could be done pretty inexpensively, much less expensively than the other initiatives you mention, but that would have a huge benefit.

Originally Posted by New2Fishtown

the remarkably expensive idea to extend platforms along the existing MFL to allow longer trains so that the line can increase its capacity).

if you're talking to me, I never said to extend the platforms lengthwise to allow for longer trains. I said to extend them laterally over the trolley tracks so that the platforms reach the MFL tracks which are below the middle of market street.

Originally Posted by New2Fishtown

The bummer realities being what they are, it would be wiser to invest in improving the experience that exists. As mentioned up thread, transferring lines is not a crazy thing to ask of people, and something that urban commuters do worldwide all the time without thinking twice.

There isn't a problem transferring lines, as long as you're transferring between equal capacity lines. But to transfer from a high capacity to a low one in an area that requires high capacity, doesn't make much sense.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

this is what I'm saying: reconfigure the platforms at 19th and 22nd; extend them over the existing trolley tracks, and raise them where you would board MFL trains. This would require terminating trolley service at 30th street.


great photo, thanks for posting. shows my point.

Agree with New2Fishtown that adding MFL stops between 15th and 30th is neither an important nor feasible project for SEPTA to undergo, but to play along with your fantasy: if the MFL stations were located where the current trolley tracks, you'd also have to dig the trolley tunnels deeper to allow people to exit the MFL stations since the trolley tracks are directly below Market Street unless you're also suggesting we make Market Street pedestrian only.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by tsarstruck

Agree with New2Fishtown that adding MFL stops between 15th and 30th is neither an important nor feasible project for SEPTA to undergo, but to play along with your fantasy: if the MFL stations were located where the current trolley tracks, you'd also have to dig the trolley tunnels deeper to allow people to exit the MFL stations since the trolley tracks are directly below Market Street unless you're also suggesting we make Market Street pedestrian only.

if you'd read my entire fantasy, I've been advocating for eliminating the trolley service east of 30th street so you can extend the platform over the trolley tracks at 19th and 22nd street stations. no tunneling necessary. transfer at 30th street for trolley service to west and southwest philly.
again, I have no illusions that any of this will happen, but it is a relatively low cost solution to a problem that has existed for a century or more. if septa is considering whether to spend its money on high cost projects like extending the BSL to the navy yard and / or roosevelt blvd, the KOP line, etc., or do a much lower cost project like this which will have an enormous positive impact, maybe they start with the low cost option and see if that turns heads of the people who would fund the higher cost ones.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

if you'd read my entire fantasy, I've been advocating for eliminating the trolley service east of 30th street so you can extend the platform over the trolley tracks at 19th and 22nd street stations. no tunneling necessary. transfer at 30th street for trolley service to west and southwest philly.
again, I have no illusions that any of this will happen, but it is a relatively low cost solution to a problem that has existed for a century or more. if septa is considering whether to spend its money on high cost projects like extending the BSL to the navy yard and / or roosevelt blvd, the KOP line, etc., or do a much lower cost project like this which will have an enormous positive impact, maybe they start with the low cost option and see if that turns heads of the people who would fund the higher cost ones.

Ah, my bad.

[PHL10]

There is no doubt that we would never configure the El and Trolleys if we were designing it today. That being, said, truncating the service to 30th isn’t a solution that has no downsides. There is a quite a bit of traffic from the Broad Street line connecting to the trolleys. That would require those riders to transfer to the El and then to the trolleys at 30th street. I’m not saying that is the end of the world but neither is transferring to the trolley to get to 20th street.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by PHL10

There is no doubt that we would never configure the El and Trolleys if we were designing it today. That being, said, truncating the service to 30th isn’t a solution that has no downsides. There is a quite a bit of traffic from the Broad Street line connecting to the trolleys. That would require those riders to transfer to the El and then to the trolleys at 30th street. I’m not saying that is the end of the world but neither is transferring to the trolley to get to 20th street.

A valid point, but let me say this again: it's about the capacity of the lines you're transferring to and from. west market is the central business district, which requires high capacity service. that means the MFL. that would have to take priority over the lower capacity requirements of travel to west and southwest philly from the BSL.
It makes much less sense for the CBD to have only low capacity trolleys when there's a perfectly good high capacity MFL that could be used. it's not perfect to make someone transfer twice, but neither is it perfect to only have low capacity service in a part of town that requires high capacity. again, if you could have both, that would be ideal, but I don't think we can. if someone can come up with a way to do it, I'd be all for it.

[mcgrath618]

Inevitably, this was going to be brought up, so I guess I’ll be the one to do it.

They’ve been talking about an MFL stop at 20th for awhile now. Not sure how realistic it is, but The need for improved service is recognized by both the city and SEPTA.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

A valid point, but let me say this again: it's about the capacity of the lines you're transferring to and from. west market is the central business district, which requires high capacity service. that means the MFL. that would have to take priority over the lower capacity requirements of travel to west and southwest philly from the BSL.
It makes much less sense for the CBD to have only low capacity trolleys when there's a perfectly good high capacity MFL that could be used. it's not perfect to make someone transfer twice, but neither is it perfect to only have low capacity service in a part of town that requires high capacity. again, if you could have both, that would be ideal, but I don't think we can. if someone can come up with a way to do it, I'd be all for it.

Not disagreeing with your point per se - but capacity is affected by frequency. During certain times of the day the Trolley's along this stretch have a 1minute, often less, headway - whereas the MFL may be 6-8minutes.

[volguus zildrohar]

The cost alone is the reason that it isn't going to happen. An infill station would be not unreasonable if nothing at all existed in the area but it's anything but a rail transit desert.

Cutting off SST service at 30th Street still proposes a problem - how are the trolleys returning west? The current balloon loop alignment is not ideal but there is nowhere to build a new loop east of 33rd Street or west of the Schuylkill due to grade changes. Even if there were, again, the cost compared to other more pressing transit needs places this at a very low priority. I'd rather see better circulation between the MFL and SST platforms at 13th and particularly 30th. The planned improvements to the SST system overall would have much more impact on access to that section of Center City if done correctly than a rather unnecessary modal retrofit. The idea of a heavy rail station at 19th or 20th of course makes a lot of sense but the fact that there isn't one is a legacy issue like so many other things in regards to Philadelphia transit and at this point there isn't a pressing need to make an expenditure of that size for an issue like this.

For the potential cost I'd say it's better to create a transfer hub (something that operates like Olney or FTC) at 15th and JFK where subway, trolley, and regional rail commuters can connect to the many bus routes that stop there much more easily and efficiently than is currently done. That would have much more impact for more people going to more places than a single station with minimal transfer potential.