Halifax Stadium Discussion

[hfx_chris]

The comments are pretty rough, but exactly what I expected to see.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Me too, I mostly watch NFL but do little to follow the CFL except for the Grey Cup once in awhile. And if a team came to Halifax, I would become a huge fan for sure! Fortunately i wont have to fly from Toronto.
You have a favorite NFL team Fenwick?

I have been following the Buffalo Bills closely for about 10 years since the time they had Doug Flutie. Lately because of the Bills poor record, I have been cheering for the Indianapolis Colts. However, I still watch all of the Bills games.

Have you ever noticed how the Alamodome in San Antonio looks a bit like a stretched version of the Halifax Metro Centre on the inside and exterior? Here are a couple of links:

http://www.olmosinc.com/project_alamodome.html
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/spor...mb-500x372.jpg

It makes me think that Halifax could build a smaller version at a lower height. Maybe they could do it in stages. Start with one sideline, than after a few years do the opposite sideline, then the end zones and as the fourth and final stage have a removable roof. At any point the project could just be stopped before it becomes too expensive. Quite a few developments are built in stages, so it could be done with a stadium as well. Just instead of building it as various different piecemeal sections, plan the finished stadium right from the beginning and build it as the money becomes available.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Have you ever noticed how the Alamodome in San Antonio looks a bit like a stretched version of the Halifax Metro Centre on the inside and exterior? Here are a couple of links:

http://www.olmosinc.com/project_alamodome.html
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/spor...mb-500x372.jpg

It makes me think that Halifax could build a smaller version at a lower height.

Well, it's about 4 times the size of the MC, and a lot taller. You couldn't build it lower since you need certain dimensions for roof height for kicks, etc.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

The comments are pretty rough, but exactly what I expected to see.

Reading the comments from the readers at the end of the article was simply depressing. Why isn't there more support? However it was great to see another article about the need for a stadium. Thanks to CHRIS COCHRANE at the Chronicle Herald for the story. It would be great to see a couple articles each week. Then the politicians will start to notice.

Getting enough people behind a stadium and CFL team in Halifax will mean a major shift in attitude for many people. There was another article in the paper today titled:
We're a backwater Nova Scotia better be prepared for big changes, argues new book http://thechronicleherald.ca/NovaScotian/1155120.html

This author started out by talking about all the positive things happening in Nova Scotia and he could have very easily have taken a positive point of view and pointed out how Manitoba has completely reversed its shrinking population. However, he took a more common route and decided to take the extremely negative point of view. WHY!!!!!!!!

I just found this: http://www.canada.com/business/Halif...834/story.html

For every negative article you can find a very positive one.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, it's about 4 times the size of the MC, and a lot taller. You couldn't build it lower since you need certain dimensions for roof height for kicks, etc.

Just leave the roof above the field open so that kicks won't hit the roof. Then in the future if there is a need for a covered stadium have a section to cover the opening above the field but not for football. Football players are accustomed to playing in the rain. However, you can't hold trade shows in the rain and also concerts aren't much fun in the rain. There would be many uses for a lower roof especially if it is removable. But even if it is never completely covered, it will essentially be like quite a few European soccer stadiums where most of the seats are covered but the field isn't.

I don't think that a totally enclosed stadium is really a necessity but it would certainly make it a much better venue if people could watch events without getting soaked (i.e. have the stands completely covered. Actually a stadium like Saputo in Montreal can be built at a cheap price with most of the stands covered. I am dreaming when it comes to venues like the Alamo-dome, however Halifax can build a Saputo type stadium in stages without being stuck with a monstrosity.

Or how about this proposal for Ottawa? This could be build in stages, one stand at a time.


(source: http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=17532 )

[sdm]

i've said it many times, and i will say it again.

Time to get Kelly out of this city and vote in a leader who has vision. We can't wait till the end of his term or we are going to miss out BIG TIME on a lot of things important to us here at this forum and to the normal citizen.

[fenwick16]

I think that what Halifax is really missing out on is not just the dream of having a CFL team but the chance to dream of sitting in a nice stadium and enjoying various events. Halifax just needs a leader who will find a way to do it at a reasonable price.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Just leave the roof above the field open so that kicks won't hit the roof. Then in the future if there is a need for a covered stadium have a section to cover the opening above the field but not for football. Football players are accustomed to playing in the rain. However, you can't hold trade shows in the rain and also concerts aren't much fun in the rain. There would be many uses for a lower roof especially if it is removable. But even if it is never completely covered, it will essentially be like quite a few European soccer stadiums where most of the seats are covered but the field isn't.

I don't think that a totally enclosed stadium is really a necessity but it would certainly make it a much better venue if people could watch events without getting soaked (i.e. have the stands completely covered. Actually a stadium like Saputo in Montreal can be built at a cheap price with most of the stands covered. I am dreaming when it comes to venues like the Alamo-dome, however Halifax can build a Saputo type stadium in stages without being stuck with a monstrosity.

Or how about this proposal for Ottawa? This could be build in stages, one stand at a time.


(source: http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=17532 )

That is a nice looking stadium for Ottawa. How lucky to be in a city like Ottawa or Toronto where they are talking about building an entire dedicated stadium for soccer, when we can't even get a lousy 10K seat facility.
As for the other one I get what you mean about the metro centre.. especially the way the upper bowl is constructed. It reminds me of MC when it first opened.

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[fenwick16]

I like your work. Great to see the effort. A stadium like Bright House Networks Stadium would work in Halifax. Also the InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Ohio that you previously posted. I see your point about having a bowl and keeping the number of rows to a minimum. One other thing, is these appear to be built with bench style seating. There are three big advantages to this; higher seating capacity (I estimate about 10% more than with folding chairs), lower stadium cost, and a big one for Halifax - lower maintenance cost (especially if exposed to the elements of rain and snow). I think that very little is lost in comfort with bench style seats. To many this may seem like a minor point but to me it seems like a very important factor in having an affordable stadium (maintenance cost will end up being a major economic expense as the stadium ages).

I would like to see part of the stadium stands covered. A roof can actually be built relatively cheaply. If you look at Saputo Stadium in Montreal, it was built for $14 million. But only part of the stands are covered. My reason isn't only concern about rain. I am more concerned about being in the sun for 2 - 3 hours (this would tend to keep me away since I would get burnt so quickly). It could be built initially without a roof and have one added later or just cover part of the stands. Even if just half of the stands are covered, then the people who prefer being in the shade will have that option. And maybe half of the people would actually prefer to be in the sun. A stadium roof becomes expensive once it is designed as a masterpiece like many new expensive stadiums. The partial roof over Saputo Stadium ( http://www.quebecsoccer.com/imlibres/stadeair2.jpg ) looks respectable but is a basic design. Another factor with minimizing the snow load is to have the roof slanted and teflon-coated so that the snow will slide of it. Most of the fabric domed roofs are teflon coated based on what I have read.

I really like the Wanderers Grounds and I am sure that there is room. I also like DND Willow Park (Windsor and Young). However, I don't want to wait 10 years until the land becomes available. I want someone in the HRM council to get started right away and have a stadium built within 3 years or sooner (preferably on the Wanderers Grounds). The Wanderers Grounds being city owned property should benefit the maximum number of people in the HRM which it would if a stadium was built there.

I honestly believe that there are many people who would contribute money to this project if the city would get moving on it and set up a trust fund. So it would not just be government money. Part of it could come from fund raising events. Same with the CFL ownership. It could be set up as a community ownership similar to the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Urban_Genius

@isaidso: Now that's dedication. I love that passion. I'm assuming you'll be in Moncton in September cheering on the argos?

I'll be there. Whether I'll be cheering on the Argonauts is debatable. I've never been able to bond with that team. I think a lot has to do with how horrible it is to watch football at Skydome, and the level of apathy in Toronto towards football in general. It's depressing being a football fan in Toronto. I tried finding a sports bar in Toronto that was having a the Grey Cup party, and couldn't find one. Can you believe that! I ended up having to watch it by myself at home.

I watched in a Toronto sports bar last year, but actually had to request the football game. Then they put an NFL game on. When I told them I meant the Grey Cup, they looked at me like I had 3 heads. I was one of only 5 people in that crowded bar who watched it and ended up fielding insults about our football all night long from regulars. I thought I was in a foreign country.

I've resorted to going to University of Toronto games and even travel to Hamilton for football.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'll be there. Whether I'll be cheering on the Argonauts is debatable. I've never been able to bond with that team. I think a lot has to do with how horrible it is to watch football at Skydome, and the level of apathy in Toronto towards football in general. It's depressing being a football fan in Toronto. I tried finding a sports bar in Toronto that was having a the Grey Cup party, and couldn't find one. Can you believe that! I ended up having to watch it by myself at home.

I watched in a Toronto sports bar last year, but actually had to request the football game. Then they put an NFL game on. When I told them I meant the Grey Cup, they looked at me like I had 3 heads. I was one of only 5 people in that crowded bar who watched it and ended up fielding insults about our football all night long from regulars. I thought I was in a foreign country.

I've resorted to going to University of Toronto games and even travel to Hamilton for football.

The problem is that Toronto is focused on being a "World Class" city which means getting the NFL. Now they are even getting Bills regular games. I actually enjoy the NFL but I hope that Toronto will always be a CFL city for the sake of the CFL. What other city in Canada can get so many fans in other cities to route against it (this is a good drawing factor for the CFL).

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The problem is that Toronto is focused on being a "World Class" city which means getting the NFL. Now they are even getting Bills regular games. I actually enjoy the NFL but I hope that Toronto will always be a CFL city for the sake of the CFL. What other city in Canada can get so many fans in other cities to route against it (this is a good drawing factor for the CFL).

You're being awfully polite. What Torontonians are really saying when they say the CFL doesn't measure up, is that Canada isn't good enough for them.

Being world class doesn't mean you thumb your nose up at the rest of your country.

Does London do that to the rest of England? Does Melbourne do that to the rest of Australia? No, those cities lead their nations in contributing to the sporting culture of their respective countries. Melbourne is home to 9 football clubs. London is home to 6 Premiership clubs. Likewise, Toronto should be the heart and soul of this nation's football league and able to support at least 4-5 teams. What does Toronto do instead? It gives the rest of Canada the finger and abandons ship!

Toronto is supposed to be our leading city, but has largely chosen to opt out of Canada instead. That's not how a leader behaves. Toronto is my home, but when it comes to contributing to this nation's sporting culture, we're a national embarrassment.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

:

I really like the Wanderers Grounds and I am sure that there is room. I also like DND Willow Park (Windsor and Young). However, I don't want to wait 10 years until the land becomes available. I want someone in the HRM council to get started right away and have a stadium built within 3 years or sooner (preferably on the Wanderers Grounds). The Wanderers Grounds being city owned property should benefit the maximum number of people in the HRM which it would if a stadium was built there.

I honestly believe that there are many people who would contribute money to this project if the city would get moving on it and set up a trust fund. So it would not just be government money. Part of it could come from fund raising events. Same with the CFL ownership. It could be set up as a community ownership similar to the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

I think the trust fund is esssential. The amount could be posted on the petetion website and some window downtown where very visible and show it dynamically so it is always going up. You could have an electronic board and post names of contributers (if they wish) like rolling credits beside the $$$ number. Perhaps a big bank would offer trust fund services and post the digital sign? Also there has to be a media sponsor such as the local papers. A posting of the petetion and trust fund needs to have constant visibility-newspaper, radio, billboards.

Three issues with the Wanderers Grounds are 1. proximity to the Public Gardens....noise, visual encroachment ,crowds 2. Proximity to a major hospital QE Health Services Centre across the street....noise, visual encroachment ,crowds . 3. Limited street access. Having said that, it is a great central location and there are concerts at the commons with the same issues.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

I think the trust fund is esssential. The amount could be posted on the petetion website and some window downtown where very visible and show it dynamically so it is always going up. You could have an electronic board and post names of contributers (if they wish) like rolling credits beside the $$$ number. Perhaps a big bank would offer trust fund services and post the digital sign? Also there has to be a media sponsor such as the local papers. A posting of the petetion and trust fund needs to have constant visibility-newspaper, radio, billboards.

Three issues with the Wanderers Grounds are 1. proximity to the Public Gardens....noise, visual encroachment ,crowds 2. Proximity to a major hospital QE Health Services Centre across the street....noise, visual encroachment ,crowds . 3. Limited street access. Having said that, it is a great central location and there are concerts at the commons with the same issues.

Great ideas. Someone recommended contacting Peter MacKay. I am thinking of doing that to see whether a trust fund can be set up that is tax deductible. Maybe a trust fund can also be set up to buy a CFL team (seriously).

I took this from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_law):

In common law legal systems, a trust is an arrangement whereby property (including real, tangible and intangible) is managed by one person (or persons, or organizations) for the benefit of another. A trust is created by a settlor (or feoffor to uses), who entrusts some or all of their property to people of their choice (the trustees or feoffee to uses). The trustees hold legal title to the trust property (or trust corpus), but they are obliged to hold the property for the benefit of one or more individuals or organizations (the beneficiary, cestui que use, or cestui que trust), usually specified by the settlor, who hold equitable title. The trustees owe a fiduciary duty to the beneficiaries, who are the "beneficial" owners of the trust property.

So the beneficiary would be the stadium. I am not a lawyer so I will have to do some more research into this.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Empire

Three issues with the Wanderers Grounds are 1. proximity to the Public Gardens....noise, visual encroachment ,crowds 2. Proximity to a major hospital QE Health Services Centre across the street....noise, visual encroachment ,crowds . 3. Limited street access. Having said that, it is a great central location and there are concerts at the commons with the same issues.

It is pretty congested in around there, and I'm not sure where all the parking people keep talking about is. Maybe Park Lane, but CFL games on a Saturday would be competing with a pretty busy area already. Having said that, we seem to be able to get concerts and events that can be pretty large on the Commons and the Hill without much issue. However the optics of a large permanent venue and the traffic/congestion it would bring might be tough for many citizen's groups and politicians to get past.

Your biggest problem with the Wanderer's Grounds is getting the city and neighbors on board. Besides the brick building at the corner of Bell and Sackville, there is a wooden building right next to the existing field that is heritage (rugby club). You will be completely displacing the Bengal Lancers and their stables and NEW paddock which was just moved from across the street when Citadel High was built. Everyone who has anything to do with the public Gardens will scream bloody blue murder... they freaked when Summer Tower was built, when Garden Crest was built and when the Paramount was built. Those all had approval dating back decades, so they couldn't be derailed. New large development proposals adjacent the Gardens will face immense hurdles. Not to mention the city has a large lot on the Wanderer's where they run greenhouses for the Gardens.

[BravoZulu]

Originally Posted by Empire

I think the trust fund is esssential. The amount could be posted on the petetion website and some window downtown where very visible and show it dynamically so it is always going up. You could have an electronic board and post names of contributers (if they wish) like rolling credits beside the $$$ number. Perhaps a big bank would offer trust fund services and post the digital sign? Also there has to be a media sponsor such as the local papers. A posting of the petetion and trust fund needs to have constant visibility-newspaper, radio, billboards.

Hey how about Bell Aliant, they could project the status of the trust funt on the side of their building at night like they do with their current advertising.

(As an aside I think that looks pretty cool when you're driving/wlaking down barrington)

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by BravoZulu

Hey how about Bell Aliant, they could project the status of the trust funt on the side of their building at night like they do with their current advertising.

(As an aside I think that looks pretty cool when you're driving/wlaking down barrington)

This would be an amazing way to keep people informed and keep it in people's minds. It will also be important to advertise to all the ex-Nova Scotians in Ontario and Alberta who want to see Halifax build a stadium (we need fund raising committees set up out of province as well).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

However the optics of a large permanent venue and the traffic/congestion it would bring might be tough for many citizen's groups and politicians to get past.

This is where a sunken bowl is nice, exactly for this reason. If a stadium is to be 40 rows high then that would be about 80 feet (2 feet raise per row) high. However, if it is sunken by 30 feet then it will be only 50 feet above ground. I actually think that having the stadium visible is a big advantage. If people can see it and it is easy to get to, then it will likely be well utilized. To keep the height down the raise per row can be decreased. How much height per row is actually needed. Is it just so that people can see over the fans in front of them. Maybe 1 foot raise per row is adequate. This is something that I want to research on the internet. Maybe someone already knows the answer as to what is considered to be an optimal raise per row. I know that the incline of stadiums and movie theaters vary quite a bit.

Your biggest problem with the Wanderer's Grounds is getting the city and neighbors on board. Besides the brick building at the corner of Bell and Sackville, there is a wooden building right next to the existing field that is heritage (rugby club).

Halifax is good at incorporating the new with the old. Maybe this heritage building can become part of the stadium. It could be a bit of a museum showing the history of the Wanderers Grounds (I love this name, Halifax Stadium on the Wanderers Grounds).

You will be completely displacing the Bengal Lancers and their stables and NEW paddock which was just moved from across the street when Citadel High was built.

Since it has been done before that means that it can be done again. How about a more permanent home for the Bengal Lancers out on the Mainland Commons where there is a lot more land and less car pollution. I don't think that horses are meant to be kept downtown. The city noise might bother them.

Everyone who has anything to do with the public Gardens will scream bloody blue murder... they freaked when Summer Tower was built, when Garden Crest was built and when the Paramount was built. Those all had approval dating back decades, so they couldn't be derailed. New large development proposals adjacent the Gardens will face immense hurdles.

The Public Gardens site is one of Halifax's real gems as far as landmarks go (maybe number 1). This is why the stadium should be built so that it doesn't detract from the Public Gardens.

Not to mention the city has a large lot on the Wanderer's where they run greenhouses for the Gardens.

It looks like they would have room to keep these greenhouses since it is in a triangular area that wouldn't be much good for the stadium.

[fenwick16]

I think a simple roof for the stands could be a canopy. Like in the image below. This could be added after the stadium is built and commissioned. Why not just have small canopy sections that can be quickly removed and reattached like a lot of Halifax restaurants have? If it is known that there is going to be high gusts of wind then just remove the canopies. These could be used to cover say 50% of the stands for the people who want shade. It is interesting to note that the Roman Coliseum used fabric roof canopies close to 2000 years ago. Two hundred and forty mast corbels were positioned around the top of the attic. They originally supported a retractable awning, known as the velarium, that kept the sun and rain off spectators. This consisted of a canvas-covered, net-like structure made of ropes, with a hole in the center.[3] It covered two-thirds of the arena, and sloped down towards the center to catch the wind and provide a breeze for the audience. Sailors, specially enlisted from the Roman naval headquarters at Misenum and housed in the nearby Castra Misenatium, were used to work the velarium.[23]
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum )

This is a more modern version (below), but is likely relatively expensive (I am sure that a flat removable canopy system could be done quite inexpensively)


(source http://www.basestructures.com/pfimag...dublin_543.pdf )