Why Does Toronto Have *So Many* Proposed Buildings?

[samne]

A lot of great ideas.

In my opinion. Demand is simply there. Huge amount of people are just fine with high rise and small unit living. If this were not the case, investors couldnt rent or actual owner occupants wouldnt buy. There is no shortage of ammenities in these areas and population want access to these. Their units are just places to sleep and keep stuff. We will see what happens when all said after pandemic.

Land is very expensive in these designated corridors. Labour is expensive too. Ontario trades unions are very well backed. Not like Dubai-like expat labour. Developers need to build up as much as they can in order to turn a profit.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Canada could be different, but I don't think it's a given that Toronto has significant urban infill because it has significant metropolitan growth. In the U.S. context, there appears to be no such correlation.

Dallas probably has the greatest numeric growth of any major U.S. metro, and its urban core is very weak, with little construction. Chicago probably has the weakest numeric growth of any major U.S. metro, and its urban core is quite strong with lots of newer construction.

I have a theory that I can't really test, but based on my experiences even multi-generational WASPy Canadians don't really have an appetite for the commuting times that have become normalized in some larger American metros. The greenbelt has been talked about before and the idea that they don't curb sprawl because development just leapfrogs the greenbelt, but you just don't see many examples of that here. This type of sprawl that I associate with places like D.C. or Atlanta just doesn't really exist.



I think if you were to poll people working in the core, the vast majority would place location above having a large private lot with an hour drive to match. Maybe cultural differences are in play here, as central neighbourhoods never experienced true white flight and built up a stigma.

The biggest thing I think is that highway connectivity moving away from the lake and not parallel to it is pretty terrible. The few examples you do have with the 400 and 404, you actually do see significant development in places like Newmarket, Aurora, and now even Barrie where people have moved beyond the greenbelt and may commute into Toronto. You just can't do the same thing from Orangeville, Uxbridge, etc. because you'd be driving into town on two lane country highways for hours and want to blow your brains out. I think in the U.S. the comprehensive interstate system provides more of these locales to build low-density around, and Americans in general seem to be more apt to move to what is currently a forest and the connectivity maybe comes later. Here, I don't think there's much desire to be that pioneering spirit and demand is focused around existing centres almost to a breaking point.

[Maldive]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

No, that's Toronto CMA (no idea if the US numbers are MSA or CSA). It's just that it's a snapshot from a short period in the early-mid 2010s where growth in Toronto was relatively anemic.

By 2019 it's shot back up to the top though:

^ 4 Texas metros out of the 15 usa metros listed... "everythang's bigger in ..."

[dc_denizen]

At some point Toronto condos will become their own currency

Secondary market , derivatives, brokers ..

I’d like to buy 10 units ‘ in bulk’ and hedge it with 25 delta put please

[PFloyd]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

At some point Toronto condos will become their own currency

Secondary market , derivatives, brokers ..

I’d like to buy 10 units ‘ in bulk’ and hedge it with 25 delta put please

What a moron...get a life loser.

[vanman]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This graph from that article is interesting (and highly relevant):


I am sure dc_denizen will claim that all this growth is due to Chinese speculators. He really despises reading anything positive about Canada. Too bad the forum is Canadian-based.

In DCs mind high population growth + booming economy + decades of urban planning + cultural acceptance of density = EMptY FOreign OwneD CoNDos!

[kool maudit]

Dc_denizen is getting a lot of shit for his cynical view of Canada, but any grouping of Canadians on the internet will see US policy, culture and society described in the most exaggeratedly pejorative terms on a regular basis.

There are times when you would think Canadians are describing the DRC or even some sort of alien dystopia devoted to injustice for the pure fun of it, rather than a neighbouring country whose folkways mirror its own so closely that Canadians abroad like me are assumed to be American by everyone they meet.

We can dish it out, it seems...

[MolsonExport]

And there are times when many forumers denigrate their own country's/city's failings, while extolling the perceived better aspects of foreign countries/cities. Especially those that live abroad or who travel regularly.

Being a cracked record and churning out the same tinny tune is simply petty and nauseating.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

No debate, the graph is simply wrong.

Its comparing Dallas Metro growth to City of Toronto proper growth. Not apples to apples at all.

i dk or care, but it says those are all metro comparisons.

also — its based on 5yrs ago.

https://www.ryerson.ca/cur/Blog/blogentry3/

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

And there are times when many forumers denigrate their own country's/city's failings, while extolling the perceived better aspects of foreign countries/cities. Especially those that live abroad or who travel regularly.

Being a cracked record and churning out the same tinny tune is simply petty and nauseating.

If SSP is actually proving noisome, it might be time for a break.

I am sorry if, as strongly implied, you find my posts about living abroad to be tedious or tendentious -- I really am. We have both been here a long time and I've always valued your opinion. If I seem harder on Canada than Sweden, it's because of the difference between talking about your own house vs. someone else's.

But it's just a forum and we're all just calling them as we see them.

I don't know, but it all seems to make you pretty mad sometimes.

[Acajack]

Even if we were to consider DC Denizen and Kool Maudit unduly harsh, I'd say Canada gets off pretty easy on here. Compared to some other countries.

[PFloyd]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

If SSP is actually proving noisome, it might be time for a break.

I am sorry if, as strongly implied, you find my posts about living abroad to be tedious or tendentious -- I really am. We have both been here a long time and I've always valued your opinion. If I seem harder on Canada than Sweden, it's because of the difference between talking about your own house vs. someone else's.

But it's just a forum and we're all just calling them as we see them.

I don't know, but it all seems to make you pretty mad sometimes.

No. We all know denizen is a notorious anti-Canada/anti-Toronto, anti-Australia, etc troll. We are just, once again, calling it out.

The fact that the moderators are not doing their job, and have not banned this guy for life is a massive problem, because this always ends up playing into his hands (like right now), and the thread gets derailed just like he wants it.

I don't care if you like or dislike any city, any country or anything at all, for that matter; it's just your opinion. You just don't need to become an enabler of a well known troll, because then you become one. Got it?

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

Got it?

You're talking like both a cop ('got it?') and a counselor ('enabler') here. It's strange.

What I am saying is, who cares if someone has a low opinion of these countries? It is hardly as if no one has a low opinion of his. The need to police ("calling out") these exchanges with the goal of eliminating those noises you find jarring or ill-founded is worse than the noises themselves.

I mean, "banned for life"? Do you hear yourself? Do you hear yourself juxtaposing sharp upbraidings ("got it") with mentions of your preferred sanctions?'

You are writing like you are angry.

It's an ugly, authoritarian sound, and far more jarring than some guy with bee in his bonnet over Canada.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by samne

A lot of great ideas.

In my opinion. Demand is simply there. Huge amount of people are just fine with high rise and small unit living. If this were not the case, investors couldnt rent or actual owner occupants wouldnt buy.

I think Airbnb (and similar platforms) has to be factored into the discussion. I'm not sure how much they are a factor, but short-term rentals have contributed to demand for real estate in certain cities.

I know for a fact that, pre-pandemic, there were condo units in Toronto that were 100% dedicated to short-term vacation rental. The owners were using Airbnb revenue to cover the mortgage and pocketing the rest. That practice has gotten flipped on its head due to the shutdown in travel, so we'll learn soon how much of a factor that has been in TO's real estate boom. Besides Toronto, a couple of other cities that I'd watch closely are Miami and Austin.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

because then you become one.

I just read your signature!

Oh dear, Canada.






Bless your heart.

[PFloyd]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I just read your signature!

Oh dear, Canada.






Bless your heart.

Oh my apologies, didn't mean to come off as "authoritarian" towards you.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, obviously, but a troll is a troll (denizen) no matter how you wanna slice it.


Bless you heart, as well.

[suburbanite]

Do you want to disprove DC's notion that Toronto condo units are becoming commoditized investment products? He never said that they were empty Chinese ghost town towers.

[Acajack]

Banning DC Denizen "for life" just seems absurdly over the top.

[hipster duck]

I find that threads about Toronto can't last a page before devolving into mudslinging.

I'm a local, but I'm pretty critical about Toronto when I need to be.

The truth is that, if you're going to measure skyscraper construction statistics, Toronto is simply going to crush any city in North America barring much bigger NYC. This is probably going to rankle a few people.

This isn't because Toronto's city government is enlightened or because Torontonians have some kind of can-do attitude toward building a teeming world city. This is because of market and societal fundamentals, all of which can be interpreted either positively or negatively.

To wit:

1. Toronto is growing rapidly due to immigration (A lot of people are attracted to Toronto/A lot of people are forced to move to Toronto because Canada has few cities with real economic diversity)

2. The provincial government has enforced a very strict and very large growth boundary and green belt, restricting all development for the next few decades to infill or a greenfield area the size of which a place like Phoenix or Dallas gobbles up in an average year. (Wow! What an enlightened provincial government to stop sprawl so effectively/It just drives housing prices through the roof, and we are still building auto-centric communities, just at much higher densities so people are even more likely to be stuck in traffic)

3. Torontonians are familiar with high rise lifestyles; even before the boom 1/4 of us lived in highrises (What urban-focused people! In other cities people would just NIMBY the shit out of a building that's 5 stories tall 5 miles away/The rich just live in single family homes anyway - actually the fact that 1/4 of the people take up more than 3/4 of the residential land area, and they're really fierce about any densification encroachments on their neighbourhoods means that Toronto developers are forced to build really tall skyscrapers in a handful of places.)

Foreign money laundering and ownership does not cause the skyscraper boom. Foreign investors just buy whatever housing form is available and nets them an ROI. In Toronto they buy condos. In the San Gabriel valley they buy monster homes. They buy monster homes in some Toronto suburbs too.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I find that threads about Toronto can't last a page before devolving into mudslinging.

I'm a local, but I'm pretty critical about Toronto when I need to be.

The truth is that, if you're going to measure skyscraper construction statistics, Toronto is simply going to crush any city in North America barring much bigger NYC. This is probably going to rankle a few people.

This isn't because Toronto's city government is enlightened or because Torontonians have some kind of can-do attitude toward building a teeming world city. This is because of market and societal fundamentals, all of which can be interpreted either positively or negatively.

To wit:

1. Toronto is growing rapidly due to immigration (A lot of people are attracted to Toronto/A lot of people are forced to move to Toronto because Canada has few cities with real economic diversity)

2. The provincial government has enforced a very strict and very large growth boundary and green belt, restricting all development for the next few decades to infill or a greenfield area the size of which a place like Phoenix or Dallas gobbles up in an average year. (Wow! What an enlightened provincial government to stop sprawl so effectively/It just drives housing prices through the roof, and we are still building auto-centric communities, just at much higher densities so people are even more likely to be stuck in traffic)

3. Torontonians are familiar with high rise lifestyles; even before the boom 1/4 of us lived in highrises (What urban-focused people! In other cities people would just NIMBY the shit out of a building that's 5 stories tall 5 miles away/The rich just live in single family homes anyway - actually the fact that 1/4 of the people take up more than 3/4 of the residential land area, and they're really fierce about any densification encroachments on their neighbourhoods means that Toronto developers are forced to build really tall skyscrapers in a handful of places.)

Foreign money laundering and ownership does not cause the skyscraper boom. Foreign investors just buy whatever housing form is available and nets them an ROI. In Toronto they buy condos. In the San Gabriel valley they buy monster homes. They buy monster homes in some Toronto suburbs too.

Very good post.

Only thing I would caveat is the very last point. Foreign money (completely legal or of questionable origins) that pays cash expedites development timelines as it de-risks developers. I don't think it's the root cause of the boom itself, but I think it's a big driver as to why proposals seem to spring out of the ground like weeds. I took the OP as not just questioning why Toronto builds so many skyscrapers, but why it has so many proposals relative to other cities that also build skyscrapers and are growing fast. Part of that is just that proposals isn't some legal definition and local zoning bylaws or development processes may behave different. I think part is also that a seemingly endless demand for pre-sales and investor-oriented condos lets everybody and their dog put in an application and fuels quicker development than a more traditional rental model.