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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 4:57 PM
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I don't disagree, but keep in mind that a lot of the heritage stock demolished in the '50s and '60s was maybe 30-40 years old. It wasn't necessarily that it was charmingly weathered or frighteningly gritty or whatever spin you put on that, it was that it was urban. It was close together.

They fell to on-ramps, of course, and freeways and parking lots and all the rest, but mainly they fell due to an oil-fuelled scattering of the souls, a kind of backdraft to the urban crowding and extreme population rises that characterized the industrial age.

Even the parking lots were hardly ideological; they were just the simplest way for downtown landowners to profit given the enormous slump in people wishing to crowd together in that downtown way. There was some ideology present, though, and we can see it in Empire State Plaza, Albany, which despite ruining a huge swath of a handsome state capital, was never designed for the storage of cars.

We are still suffering from an increasingly archaic vision of our physical future.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:00 PM
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Empire State Plaza, Albany
in my view, among the most egregious failures in 'urban renewal', in terms of the massive scar it left in downtown Albany. Of course, on a social level, Pruitt Igoe was way worse.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post


Disagree. Big cities almost universally set the trends. And as we see the constant excuse down the size ladder, Toronto's failings only get magnified elsewhere. For Canada to be great we need Toronto to be better. And by that I mean, not just the urban core south of Bloor, but the entire GTA. Because for however much Toronto itself has improved, the GTA is still a sprawling mess and arguably getting worse.

Don't disagree, but we're talking past each other a bit. What does 12 million people, a 20-line metro and the status of provincial capital within a minor league Anglosphere resource firm get you? A glowing feature in 1843, maybe.

This isn't Toronto's fault, and history is usually best avoided, anyway. But I think the point sticks: it will be a more renowned city when it is at the centre of something.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:01 PM
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in my view, among the most egregious failures in 'urban renewal', in terms of the massive scar it left in downtown Albany. Of course, on a social level, Pruitt Igoe was way worse.
Agreed, and neither were focused that heavily on cars. The roots go deep here.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Disagree. Big cities almost universally set the trends. And as we see the constant excuse down the size ladder, Toronto's failings only get magnified elsewhere.
Toronto is the biggest city in Canada but I am not sure it has had a 50 year run at the forefront of urban trends in Canada. I think you've got cause and effect somewhat backwards here (though admittedly it's more like a feedback loop). More influential and dynamic cities tend to grow in population.

Ottawa is fundamentally a federal government town and that sets the tone there, while Toronto is Canada's main business hub.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:06 PM
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"Towers in a Park/Plaza" = extremely banal 'urban' environment that utterly lacks human scale.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
This isn't Toronto's fault, and history is usually best avoided, anyway. But I think the point sticks: it will be a more renowned city when it is at the centre of something.
But it's already the financial, economic and political centre of the country. Sure. It's not quite the same as say London is to the UK or Paris is to France, since our geography doesn't lend itself to substantial centralization in one major city. But for better or worse, by virtue of its size, it's still the city that sits at the big boys table for Canada.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:09 PM
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I think we have to get down to the level where Empire State Plaza is the Houston parking photo, which is Pruitt-Igoe and Cabrini-Green, which is Star Trek, which is 1984, and so on.

What I mean is, an alienated future can be purposelessly imposing, it can be vacant, it can be mis-planned by distant engineers, it can be literally alien or it can be absurd and hostile. They are all aspects of alienation.

Cities and urban spaces are small, close and tight. Choosing to live that way implies a lot of things.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
But it's already the financial, economic and political centre of the country. Sure. It's not quite the same as say London is to the UK or Paris is to France, since our geography doesn't lend itself to substantial centralization in one major city. But for better or worse, by virtue of its size, it's still the city that sits at the big boys table for Canada.
No argument here
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:12 PM
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That comment about Americans thinking older cities are better is interesting. It's something you believe if new development isn't happening or is worse than the old development. I think this was true for much of the 20th century but is reversing a little now. In Canada, in my opinion, there's a growing proportion of the nicest modern development that is as good as or better than buildings from say the 1890 period in this country. Of course it is also qualitatively different.

In principle, there is no reason why the new buildings cannot be even better. This happened for long periods of history, for example from 800 -> 1800 in Europe.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:17 PM
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We have a neo-traditionalist architectural movement gaining strength here in Sweden after a series of monstrous and widely disliked public buildings were erected around the larger cities. This is its English site:

http://www.arkitekturupproret.se/om-au/about-english/

While it is welcome for obvious reasons, I think that the whole trad angle obscures some of the problems. Not everything needs to be a Georgian townhouse. But if we are building among Georgian townhouses, it is absurd to ignore every quality that makes them so beloved.

The problems of architectural modernism are ultimately ones of scale and not style.

Glass cubes, whatever their other problems, would do fine in urban neighbourhoods were they small, close, tight and varied. As would any number of other novel forms.

It's so easy.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
No argument here
I will present a counter argument.

My old roommate used to work on projects like software for launching satellites. He did this from our not so nice apartment in Vancouver. He billed more than what a lot of people in supposed big boy jobs make.

Bay Area companies are increasingly hiring remotely and frankly they are far more interesting than anything we have in significant measure in Canada. I wish it weren't so but it is. For a lot of people Toronto is not on the "ladder" of success.

I don't say this to try to put down Toronto or because I think it's a bad city. This is just how things are going. Increasingly the most talented people pick where they live.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:31 PM
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Bay Area companies are increasingly hiring remotely and frankly they are far more interesting than anything we have in Canada. I wish it weren't so but it is. For a lot of people Toronto is not on the "ladder" of success.

I don't say this to try to put down Toronto or because I think it's a bad city. This is just how things are going.
I mean, yes and no. Usually the projection is school -> Toronto -> SF/Seattle/LA/NY. And if not then it's school in Toronto -> those destinations. I haven't been here long and I already have a slew of colleagues who are now in NY or LA. Like any other city there's going to be a transient working population that move around large world cities because that's the sort of option that's available to them.

I don't think anyone can really argue that Toronto isn't the financial and business centre of Canada. What you're arguing is a different conversation altogether (career pathways of specific industries). Like yeah, I don't doubt that people in comp sci or tech are in SF. Why wouldn't they be? There's nothing Toronto or any other city in the world can do about that if that's the world hub for those industries.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 5:39 PM
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I freely admit my bias but that said when I think of a dream neighbourhood I think about London's Wortley Village.

It is great collection of interesting shops, restaurants, and services with tons of character, a real sense of community, all surrounded by beautiful old brick homes on leafy streets. It still remains quite affordable and hence has every type of demographic you can imagine.

One thing that also makes it special is that Wortley Road is not a major street and another thing I love about it is that it ISN'T on a bus route. No buses go down nor cross the street so it really is a peaceful and quiet "village" in the truest sense of the term. Despite that it is very transit friendly as it is served by several of the city's busiest routes within 1 or 2 blocks of it on either side.

You could live in London for a month and travel all the main streets in the city and take every single bus route and never discover it. This despite the fact that it is a pleasant short walk to downtown and the Thames River and all it's endless parks.

It doesn't have as many high end shops and the sheer number of restaurants and bars that Richmond Row enjoys nor Richmond's grand architecture or Victoria Park but to live I would take it over Richmond Row any day.

Wortley Village really is that............a village inside of a city and is a true urban gem.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 6:09 PM
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I don't think anyone can really argue that Toronto isn't the financial and business centre of Canada.
My point is that this "financial and business centre of Canada" status means perhaps 60% of what it did back in 1981. And if things keep going it won't mean much at all in 2061. I'm sure there will still be some legacy businesses but they won't grow much or be very attractive places to work, and their management will look like the Canadian senate does today (maybe they're already like this).

This doesn't mean that Toronto will do badly. I think it will be larger and more successful than today. This could be one of the biggest impacts we see on urbanism. For a long time it hasn't really been clear why we have tons of office workers commuting into expensive downtown skyscraper districts, but there was a lot of resistance to remote work. It's complicated but we will see a bit of a rebalancing.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
I'll be blunt: I have never visited Edmonton, but photos and Street View have always made it appear the ugliest and most utilitarian of Canada's major cities. I have explored neighbourhoods like Oliver and downtown, and in terms of finding a good street, I have always come up empty-handed (I can sometimes find a good block).

That said, urbanism has a human element and the buildings are just the frame to scenes of human movement and dynamism. In this way, I bet there are a lot of places in Edmonton that would strike me, in person, as "this shouldn't work but it does". I have been to places in Miami, for instance, that are like this.
As a life-long Edmontonian, I’ll say it’s a city that doesn't photograph well — least of all in streetview — but it does have some places that work in-person. Oliver’s the big one I think. Looking at it, it’s this weird — and at times downright ugly —mix of pre-war Foursquares and ‘50s walkups, and contemporary towers, yet it’s actually a really nice community to walk through. It might not be the best urban neighbourhood in Canada — it could be denser, a little less run-down in spots, have more businesses inside the community and away from Jasper Avenue, etc. — yet it’s decent, and lively in its own way. But my opinion may be coloured as someone less-traveled.

Having said all that though, I agree with everything you’ve said. Edmonton’s biggest weakness is its lack of urban cohesion. We have blocks or stretches of blocks that almost work, but nothing more (perhaps with the exception of Whyte). As ue mentioned, there’s places like 104th, a great urban street that just isn’t as lively as it ought to be, or places like 124th, which is nice enough but has plenty of gaps in it. What’s more pressing to me though is how we can have a stretch of historic buildings or smaller-scale storefronts that just give way to downright inhospitable stretches the next block over.

My mind’s always drawn to the 97th Street area. Along Jasper you have this great collection of Edwardian buildings — by Edmonton-standards it could really be something special — but twist your head forty-five degrees and you’re met with the hulking mass that is Canada Place. Or down 97th itself. Again, great pre-war buildings, but turn around in any direction and you’re met with the ass-end of the Provincial Law Courts, an old C.N.R. underpass, and the Brownlee Building.

Most of our ills can be explained away due to the history of Alberta’s booms and busts (as much of a cop-out as that may be). Prior to the Great War the city was blooming into something beautiful, and we developed a surprisingly dense downtown core for a city of our size. But then a real-estate bust came in 1913, then the Great War, then an exodus of 20,000 people, then the Great Depression, then the Second World War. Edmonton’s population stagnated and the number of major buildings erected between 1914 and 1939 could probably be counted on two hands. It’s not hyperbole to say the Edmonton of the early 1940s was a time-capsule.

Anyways, all this is to say that when oil was discovered in ‘47 there was a rush to modernize the entire city. Most looked at the forty-year-old core and decided it needed ‘updating’ and update it they did until the late ‘80s when the next major bust came around. In its wake it left dozens of demolished heritage buildings, undeveloped lots, monolithic towers, and nothing in between. Some thirty-plus years on we’re still dealing with its effects.

There has been progress in recent years, of course, but that mid-century clear-cutting of the downtown core will always plague us. It’s sad to me, but at this point the best downtown Edmonton could really hope to be in terms of a defined urban-form (and we’re talking decades of work out here) is something more akin to Yaletown in Vancouver. Maybe not in style, but in spirit. Something that’s been built from nothing, and while it’s something urban, decent to look at, and maintains a sliver of its past and character, is something that’s still overall pretty soulless and plain, if that makes any sense?

I’ll end my ramble here.

Last edited by _Citizen_Dane_; Sep 9, 2021 at 7:18 PM.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I will present a counter argument.

My old roommate used to work on projects like software for launching satellites. He did this from our not so nice apartment in Vancouver. He billed more than what a lot of people in supposed big boy jobs make.

Bay Area companies are increasingly hiring remotely and frankly they are far more interesting than anything we have in significant measure in Canada. I wish it weren't so but it is. For a lot of people Toronto is not on the "ladder" of success.

I don't say this to try to put down Toronto or because I think it's a bad city. This is just how things are going. Increasingly the most talented people pick where they live.
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
My point is that this "financial and business centre of Canada" status means perhaps 60% of what it did back in 1981. And if things keep going it won't mean much at all in 2061. I'm sure there will still be some legacy businesses but they won't grow much or be very attractive places to work, and their management will look like the Canadian senate does today (maybe they're already like this).

This doesn't mean that Toronto will do badly. I think it will be larger and more successful than today. This could be one of the biggest impacts we see on urbanism. For a long time it hasn't really been clear why we have tons of office workers commuting into expensive downtown skyscraper districts, but there was a lot of resistance to remote work. It's complicated but we will see a bit of a rebalancing.
I question the relevance to urbanism. It's not like California is an urban paradise. And Silicon Valley in particular is among the worst. All that tech money. And they built some world class suburban crap.
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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 7:16 PM
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As someone who has lived in Winnipeg and Edmonton and appreciates both cities, I think this thread is overselling Winnipeg's urbanism and underselling Edmonton's. There are parts of Edmonton with great urban character that I as a Winnipegger would die for. Conversely, Winnipeg has done little to develop its urban character in the last hundred years. So much of the quality urbanism dates back to the 1910s or earlier... some of it has aged well and is still healthy like downtown and the Exchange District, while some of it is basically a hollowed out cadaver at this point, like Selkirk Ave. and many of the old streetcar routes north of downtown.
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
Not everything needs to be a Georgian townhouse.
It certainly does. At least when I fantasize about creating a city out of thin air, anyway.
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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2021, 7:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I freely admit my bias but that said when I think of a dream neighbourhood I think about London's Wortley Village.

It is great collection of interesting shops, restaurants, and services with tons of character, a real sense of community, all surrounded by beautiful old brick homes on leafy streets. It still remains quite affordable and hence has every type of demographic you can imagine.

One thing that also makes it special is that Wortley Road is not a major street and another thing I love about it is that it ISN'T on a bus route. No buses go down nor cross the street so it really is a peaceful and quiet "village" in the truest sense of the term. Despite that it is very transit friendly as it is served by several of the city's busiest routes within 1 or 2 blocks of it on either side.

You could live in London for a month and travel all the main streets in the city and take every single bus route and never discover it. This despite the fact that it is a pleasant short walk to downtown and the Thames River and all it's endless parks.

It doesn't have as many high end shops and the sheer number of restaurants and bars that Richmond Row enjoys nor Richmond's grand architecture or Victoria Park but to live I would take it over Richmond Row any day.

Wortley Village really is that............a village inside of a city and is a true urban gem.
Wortley village is easily the nicest part of London (much of the rest is a rather Wartly town).
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