Does Toronto have the same magnetic pull among Canadians that NYC has for Americans?

[destroycreate]

You know how many US Americans dream of making it big in NYC, moving to the big bad city, the fairy tale/mythical status of the place etc....

Within Canada, is Toronto basically considered the ultimate goal for many to achieve their dreams, make it big, or live at the pinnacle of where everything is happening like NYC is for the US, or London is for England? I know TO is rapidly growing but is it via Canadians or immigrants really?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

I know TO is rapidly growing but is it via Canadians or immigrants really?

New York primarily grows via immigrants, not Americans.

London primarily grows via immigrants, not Brits.

Toronto primarily grows via immigrants, not Canadians.

[mhays]

Yes, but they still draw the "best and brightest" of their countries. Young adults and high-earners move in and 30-somethings who want cheap houses move out.

I suspect that Toronto has some of that role, but also NYC and SF have some of it even for Canadians.

[pdxtex]

Interesting question. Its probably both I would bet. Canada is like Australia, a giant country with only three really large cities so you have this hyper concentration going on. From statscan, 1.1 million ppl moved to Canada during the past 5 years, and 50 percent of those new immigrants landed in Ontario.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

Young adults and high-earners move in and 30-somethings who want cheap houses move out.

Of course. I'm not aware of any large urban city where that type of churn doesn't happen.

But in terms of what's driving actual, cumulative growth in those three cities, it's immigrants, not natives.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by mhays

Yes, but they still draw the "best and brightest" of their countries. Young adults and high-earners move in and 30-somethings who want cheap houses move out.

I suspect that Toronto has some of that role, but also NYC and SF have some of it even for Canadians.

And Los Angeles. The LA of Canada is . . . LA. There are many Canadian expats working in the entertainment and music industries here.

[Doady]

Most Canadians outside of Toronto refer to it as "The Centre of the Universe".

[Nouvellecosse]

In my experience yes. Both of my parents moved to Toronto prior to my birth as did my uncle years later and several other acquaintances. It isn't the only city that draws people since I've known people who moved to Montreal, Vancouver and to a lessen extent several other places but Toronto seem to be the biggest draw.

It's probably true that the city is growing mainly due to immigration, but that isn't because it isn't a draw domestically. It's just that a) we have a low birth rate below replacement meaning that growth in general relies on immigration, and b) Canada has been developed enough for long enough that we don't have much in the way of populous rural areas still emptying out which drives the growth of many large cities in emerging economies. So basically there's a limited number of people outside the major successful cities who are young, ambitious, and dissatisfied with local opportunities.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

You know how many US Americans dream of making it big in NYC, moving to the big bad city, the fairy tale/mythical status of the place etc....

Within Canada, is Toronto basically considered the ultimate goal for many to achieve their dreams, make it big, or live at the pinnacle of where everything is happening like NYC is for the US, or London is for England? I know TO is rapidly growing but is it via Canadians or immigrants really?

Making it in Canada is not the same as making it in NYC or Hollywood.

[homebucket]

This shouldn't be too hard to figure out. Do we have data on which metros Canadians are either going for college and/or moving to for work after college? I wouldn't be surprised if a lot are moving to various US metros including NYC, SF, LA to "make it", but how much compared to moving to Toronto would be interesting to see.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

Interesting question. Its probably both I would bet. Canada is like Australia, a giant country with only three really large cities so you have this hyper concentration going on. From statscan, 1.1 million ppl moved to Canada during the past 5 years, and 50 percent of those new immigrants landed in Ontario.

Only 3? Edmonton and Calgary are roughly the same size.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Derek

Only 3? Edmonton and Calgary are roughly the same size.

Definitely more than 3, Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary all have more than 1.6 million people now and will be over 2 million very soon.
They are all larger now than Vancouver was in the early 90's
More Canadian move to all 3 cities than to Toronto which has a large negative net migration with the rest of Canada.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Nite

Definitely more than 3, Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary all have more than 1.6 million people now and will be over 2 million very soon.
They are all larger now than Vancouver was in the early 90's
More Canadian move to all 3 cities than to Toronto which has a large negative net migration with the rest of Canada.

Ok but 1.6 million people does not qualify as 'really large'. Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto are obviously the top tier of Canadian cities. Does anyone ever talk about dreaming of moving to Calgary or Ottawa to pursue their big city dreams? Doubtful.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by edale

Ok but 1.6 million people does not qualify as 'really large'. Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto are obviously the top tier of Canadian cities. Does anyone ever talk about dreaming of moving to Calgary or Ottawa to pursue their big city dreams? Doubtful.

By Canadian standards that is large. Most Canadian would consider Vancouver in the early 90's a large Canadian city.
They are in the same population range as cities like Liverpool, Dublin, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Valencia, Turin, Porto, Marseille, Helsinki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...European_Union

Contrary to what most think Canada has a lot of large cities (over 1.5 million). Besides the US I don't think any other developed country has more than 6 cities larger than 1.5 million.

[202_Cyclist]

I would think Moose Jaw probably has the most appeal for young Canadians hoping to hit it big.

[chris08876]

If I lived in Canada, I'd want to be in Toronto.

Something about the biggest city, its always alluring in general. Just like if I was in Japan, I'd want to be in Tokyo. Hell, I'd move there tomorrow if I could (superior country, superior city). Just need to brush up on my Japanese.

Although Vancouver is arguably the most aesthetic and beautiful city in Canada, by far IMO. I think if it was cheaper, Vancouver would actually be more of a draw than Toronto. Living wise that is. I'd imagine the Toronto job market is much stronger than Vancouver (I think?).

If Vancouver was cheaper, I think folks would be flocking there more than Toronto. Its in a impeccable location. Right next to the Pacific, a gateway for immigration.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

Interesting question. Its probably both I would bet. Canada is like Australia, a giant country with only three really large cities so you have this hyper concentration going on. From statscan, 1.1 million ppl moved to Canada during the past 5 years, and 50 percent of those new immigrants landed in Ontario.

1.3 million people moved to Canada last year. I think those Statscan numbers were estimates from 2021 ie. before massive immigration hit Canada in 2022.

Originally Posted by chris08876

If I lived in Canada, I'd want to be in Toronto.


Although Vancouver is arguably the most aesthetic and beautiful city in Canada, by far IMO. I think if it was cheaper, Vancouver would actually be more of a draw than Toronto. Living wise that is. I'd imagine the Toronto job market is much stronger than Vancouver (I think?).

If Vancouver was cheaper, I think folks would be flocking there more than Toronto. Its in a impeccable location. Right next to the Pacific, a gateway for immigration.

Vancouver and Toronto cost about the same to live in. Toronto has more opportunities though.

Vancouver grew by almost 100,000 people last year, so it's growing very quickly, just not as fast as Toronto.

[kool maudit]

In smaller countries, the pull of the largest city is qualified by the existence of larger cities elsewhere. So the absolute hungriest people, and those who who do not place a huge value on remaining in their own country or culture, or near family, will go on to global hubs.

I think the way you have phrased it is a little bit starry-eyed, yellow brick road-ish... and people with those dreams in the performing arts or similar might cast a broader net. But for a lot of Canadians with Toronto, just like Americans with New York, there are certain career paths that will just end up dropping you in Toronto eventually.

This is particularly true in finance and media, but also in a lot of business spheres if you are interested in director-level positions and above, and getting board roles.

You might not have dreams of the big city and its glittering streets... but Toronto will just kind of come up eventually.

[Innsertnamehere]

Vancouver is the LA equivalent in Canada - people move there for the climate and lifestyle more than economic opportunities. Cost of living is about the same as Toronto but it has less economic opportunities and lower salaries so ends up being more expensive overall.

Alberta is the Texas of Canada - not particularly desirable but huge economic opportunities and affordable.

Toronto is the NYC, or relatively close to it. Centre of business, most expensive, but also the place with the Canadian gentry and centre of the country's wealth and economy.

The influences are obviously not exact between each though, especially since as others mentioned many people just move to the US on a TN Visa. In many ways NYC and LA are the NYC and LA of Canada. Generally I'm not sure many Americans realize how large the US looms in Canada and how many Canadians spend significant amounts of time in the country for work, vacation, retirement, and family reasons.

TNs are very easy for Canadians to get but are temporary visas only so many end up moving back at some point, or go through the arduous process of obtaining US permanent residency. So that does mute a lot of the effects and draws of LA or NYC, leaving Toronto and Vancouver as the "easier" options.

[kool maudit]

In Sweden, a lot of people who move to Stockholm for work think the Stockholmers are a bit too far up their own asses about metropolitan life, and like to remind them that it is a small city in the scheme of things.

I did not notice this as much in Copenhagen, maybe because the country is much more dominated by that one city.