Winnipeg or Québec - 1 Million

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by harls

Same. Places don't need to grow to become 'great'.

*awaits ssp bombardment*

Since you're awaiting bombardment I assume you have responses for any potential objections.

I think it's true that that growth isn't strictly necessary to achieve greatness in a technical sense, but exceptions are also pretty rare. Like someone without a wealthy background becoming rich without a successful career or business ventures. Sure they can win the lottery or marry into wealth or something. But those are comparatively rare. It's fairly common for cities to remain great long after growth ceases allowing them to coast on their legacy of greatness established during their growing heydays. But "become great" implies fairly significant change, and change has to be powered by something.

Growth tends to be the most common driver of change for a city. Planners can direct growth in all sorts of different ways but such plans don't do much with no growth happening. Most cities lack the funds to make really significant changes when they're not growing as they usually have a hard enough time maintaining or replacing what they already have. So growth creates huge opportunities for cities even if not all cities handle the opportunity well.

How many cities can you think of that went from not being great to having greatness during periods of population stagnation or decline? Cities that most would not consider great when they first reached whatever size they remained at? I'm having trouble thinking of anything but "still great" cities which is quite different.

[goodgrowth]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Quebec City has the lowest unemployment rate of any major Canadian city and, not only is it a major magnet for migrants from within Quebec (more so than Montreal), it's attracting more and more immigrants too. It's notably more diverse than it used to be.

I think people in this thread are underestimating how many potential immigrants speak French and don't necessarily want to live in Montreal.

Nobody is underestimating anything. Quebec objectively has lower international immigration per capita.

[O-tacular]

Everyone seems to be underestimating Okotoks.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Everyone seems to be underestimating Okotoks.

Niverville is the new Okotoks

[FrAnKs]

Winnipeg because it's the metropolis of its province.

[trueviking]

Winnipeg’s CMA will pass a million in 12 years or so. Kitchener/Waterloo would have to grow by 30,000 per year to do that. It currently grows by about 8,000.

Kitchener is not in the conversation.

[76samian]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Niverville is the new Okotoks

Niverville has like 4000 people. Its also a complete shitpit

[76samian]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Winnipeg’s CMA will pass a million in 12 years or so. Kitchener/Waterloo would have to grow by 30,000 per year to do that. It currently grows by about 8,000.

Kitchener is not in the conversation.

Wrong!

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Although not considered one city, Kitchener Waterloo Cambridge could easily beat both cities to 1 million in Waterloo Region.

Disagree. Tech industry in the last 6-8 months laid off thousand plus jobs affecting K-W. That's going to temper growth rates a bit.
In 2021 the CMA was 575k, Waterloo region was 587k

A bit of a catch-up game to Winnipeg ~835k and Québec 839k

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by LightingGuy

If you look at the broader KWCG region I think it will most definitely be at a million people in the next 20 years, largely due to the GTA spillover.

2022 population was 794,897 people.

2002 population was 586,018 people.

(Source)

The distance between the urban boundaries of the 2 CMAs is only 6km, and this will likely shrink.

Including Guelph in KCW CMA, might as well connect Hamilton CMA (785k) to St. Catharines-Niagara CMA (433k) for over 1.21M people as of 2021

Sorry Quebec and Winnipeg, the game was rigged

[Wigs]

Kitchener-Waterloo did beat them all to LRT though

[SpongeG]

my best friend and his BF just moved to Winnipeg from BC and he said something they are having a problem with is a language for some jobs, mainly government jobs, they require French. Is that true?

a little back story he worked for the BC Liquor Store, which is Government run/owned, and was hoping to get a similar job in Winnipeg but was running into the issue of not being able to speak French and took a lower paying job at a privately run place.

[harls]

I wasn't looking for Southern Ontario to jump into this discussion. Will Winnipeg or Québec reach 1 million first... that was all.

Dangit, Skyscraperpage.

[LightingGuy]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Including Guelph in KCW CMA, might as well connect Hamilton CMA (785k) to St. Catharines-Niagara CMA (433k) for over 1.21M people as of 2021

Sorry Quebec and Winnipeg, the game was rigged

You are right, but my comparison wasn't that far fetched either. KW and Guelph are very economically linked. So much so that highway 7 is planned to be upgraded to a freeway the entire length between the two. I can see KW and Guelph morphing into each other.

[thewave46]

In the context of winning an arbitrary race to 1 million, yeah, edge to Winnipeg.

In the context of the city being a 'great city' as in what the locals want, not so sure there. In the SSP fashion, statistics are the easy points to argue.

So, if we're doing the statistics game, sure, one can make a case for Winnipeg. Here ya go:
NHL teams: Winnipeg = 1, Quebec City = 0.
There it is, folks, statistically proven. Winnipeg>Quebec City.

In the more arbitrary sense, is Winnipeg leveraging the growth it is getting to make a better city for its inhabitants? Or is Quebec doing a better job there, despite lower growth? Is growth unto itself what makes a city great? Is Phoenix, AZ a great city because of its rapid growth?

Greatness - to myself, at least - seems to be a measure of the holistic nature of a city. Does it feel like a place like has a centre, a direction, the infrastructure to make that happen, and the willingness to invest for the future? History is harder to pin down, but longer-lived cities have an edge there that younger ones don't.

So, in the sense of Quebec City, I get more the sense of a city trying more for the goal of greatness versus just growth. It's the depth of the planning for transit, the preservation of its centre, how its culture is steeped into it, the undeniable advantage of the long history of place. It has a sense of who it is, what it wants to be, and is trying to get there.

Alas, Winnipeg doesn't give that same vibe. It's been a long while since I've been, but the current state of affairs more portends a 'growth with less vision to greatness' angle. It has potential, but that potential seems unrealized. There's fits and spurts, but never a sustained momentum. Which is a shame, because mid-sized Canadian cities always did pretty well at the infrastructure bit - Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa had transit systems befitting cities of their stature as they grew to cities of a million. Sure, the former had the oil boom and the latter being the national capital, but I think Winnipeg could be something if it wanted to be.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by LightingGuy

You are right, but my comparison wasn't that far fetched either. KW and Guelph are very economically linked. So much so that highway 7 is planned to be upgraded to a freeway the entire length between the two. I can see KW and Guelph morphing into each other.

But they will always remain two separate CMAs.

As far as Stats Can is concerned, once a CMA, always a CMA.

For example, Oshawa is part of the GTHA, but will never be part of the Toronto CMA.

[kwoldtimer]

If you're going to lump Guelph in with K-C-W, you might as well add Hamilton and Brantford.

[harls]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Niverville is the new Okotoks

You joke about it now, but I bet it will be!

[LightingGuy]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If you're going to lump Guelph in with K-C-W, you might as well add Hamilton and Brantford.

That's a little bit different. The distance between them is quite a bit larger, and most of that is greenbelt.


https://files.ontario.ca/on-2019/mma...ettlements.pdf

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by harls

Well J.OT13, you know me - and I'm a dude from Manitoba living in Québec. And look at the traffic it is generating for Dylan!

Originally Posted by harls

I wasn't looking for Southern Ontario to jump into this discussion. Will Winnipeg or Québec reach 1 million first... that was all.

Dangit, Skyscraperpage.

Just realized that I was offering to add to the poll and title, not realizing that you are also a moderator. Not only that, but the moderator who got me the moderating powers

Yes, Winnipeg v. Quebec City, I believe Winnipeg will get there first. I want Winnipeg to get there first.

Quebec City is already pretty much perfection. There's no level of urban growth in the urban area that would improve the city a whole lot (maybe even hurt it). Wall to wall heritage. One or two new modern towers would be nice, but I can't even begin to identify good sites. I would almost want to preserve the central area in amber, and just focus on suburban stretches of the tramway, which would be nice, but not super interesting.

Winnipeg has huge untapped potential. It already have great bones with the Exchange, Union Station, a very spread out Downtown and many parking lots that are begging to be redeveloped. You could grow the skyline with dozens of interesting new buildings, creating even more contrast between old and new, similar to Montreal. As for the lack of a solid transit plan for the future, Ottawa didn't get rail (real, electric, high-capacity rail, not a diesel choo-choo) until after we hit the 1 million mark. Before that, we only had Transitways like Winnipeg.