Halifax Stadium Discussion

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I still like the idea of a Memorial Stadium for the Halifax Explosion if the DND willow Park site is ever used for a stadium because of its proximity to the explosion site and because the 100th year anniversary is coming up (2017). The Navy also just celebrated its 100th year.

It has been estimated that the Parliment buildings in Ottawa will cost 5 billion dollars to renovate (yes that is billion, not million). Can't Ottawa spare a few million dollars on a Halifax area stadium?

The Nova Centre could be the test... if we can't get something built with federal money that was completely pre-planned, I doubt a stadium will happen.

The DND site is prett much perfect... I would position it a bit further south than your placement (Front of Stadium in line with front of superstore... put a big pavillion with a monument to the Navy/Halifax explosion out front. It could be done in the style of the seaport farmers market Samuel Cunard area.

That way there would be lots of room for people to congregate at the front of the stadium for entrance.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

The Nova Centre could be the test... if we can't get something built with federal money that was completely pre-planned, I doubt a stadium will happen.

The DND site is prett much perfect... I would position it a bit further south than your placement (Front of Stadium in line with front of superstore... put a big pavillion with a monument to the Navy/Halifax explosion out front. It could be done in the style of the seaport farmers market Samuel Cunard area.

That way there would be lots of room for people to congregate at the front of the stadium for entrance.

That's actually a pretty good point WH - if we can't get money for the 4 pad or a convention centre; then a stadium would probably not pass mustard too. So everyone cross their toes; etc.

I like the suggestion of keeping the front in line with the superstore - because if you can tie the parking to the forum site parking - I would highly suggest some sort of ped bridge over young street so you aren't jamming up the intersection too much (beyond those who ended up parking elsewhere). There may be enough room for some sort of memorial/display and also a bus bay - I'd highly encourage that at the same location.

[fenwick16]

I should have stated that Halifax will need a major sports event to get any federal funding (such as being a host city in the 2015 FIFA World Women's Cup).

Here is a extract from a story regarding the federal government's position on funding hockey arenas (which would also apply to football stadiums). On the other hand convention centres have been funded throughout Canada.

(Source Ottawa Citizen - http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/...megadrop_story )

Ottawa Citizen

No tax dollars for Quebec arena bid: Stockwell Day

By Hubert Bauch, Postmedia News August 27, 2010

MONTREAL — Quebec City shouldn’t look to a deficit-fighting federal government for funding for a new arena that would enable it to lure back a National Hockey League franchise, Treasury Board President Stockwell Day said Friday.

“We’ve been clear that professional sports teams, including the NHL, of which we’re all big fans, won’t be receiving federal government dollars,” he told reporters during a Montreal stop on a cross-country tour to reassure business leaders that the Conservative government’s economic plan is on track.

In a related story, Regina has a real "pie in the sky" stadium proposal for a $435 million retractable dome stadium. It is contingent on federal funding though - http://www.thestarphoenix.com/sports...937/story.html. In my opinion, Regina should focus on a $100 - $150 million dollar stadium since they can justify it based on the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

That's actually a pretty good point WH - if we can't get money for the 4 pad or a convention centre; then a stadium would probably not pass mustard too. So everyone cross their toes; etc.

I like the suggestion of keeping the front in line with the superstore - because if you can tie the parking to the forum site parking - I would highly suggest some sort of ped bridge over young street so you aren't jamming up the intersection too much (beyond those who ended up parking elsewhere). There may be enough room for some sort of memorial/display and also a bus bay - I'd highly encourage that at the same location.

I think a ped bridge is a great idea... make a good sized one over the intersection. It would be a good idea regardless, as ther is currently nothing but an ulgy sign on the north side (forum front lot) and the intersection is dangerous because of the number of lanes and turning lanes that go into it.

[Empire]

- Hfx forum south parking lot could become an 8 level parking structure transit hub. The street level on Windsor and Almon could have commercial frontage.
- The forum would provide a connection from the parking to the stadium
- The forum north parking lot could be developed into a service area for the stadium - washrooms, restaurants, Atlantic Schooners pro shop etc. - (you would need some washrooms at the far end of the stadium) There could be a large pedestrian entrance facing Bayer's Rd. From here you would go by pedway to the stadium. This development at the forum site could help reduce the footprint of the stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

- Hfx forum south parking garage could become an 8 level parking structure transit hub. The street level on Windsor and Almon could have commercial frontage.
- The forum would provide a connection from the parking to the stadium
- The forum north parking lot could be developed into a service area for the stadium - washrooms, restaurants, Atlantic Schooners pro shop etc. There would be a large pedestrian entrance facing Bayer's Rd. From here you would go by pedway to the stadium. This development at the forum site could help reduce the footprint of the stadium.

Having all the washrooms centralized would cut the cost of the stadium down and reduce the footprint. This is done in some university level stadiums but I think that any stadium that will eventually (hopefully) be used for the CFL should have washrooms built into the concourses for at least 31,000 people - I added more since I expect that any stadium will be used for large concerts. Perhaps additional washrooms could be accessed at the Forum site for very large concerts of 50,000 (if U2 were playing for example).

When I did the last conceptual stadium (for what it is worth) I decided to add washrooms within the concourses with 1 toilet per 70 women and 1 toilet/urinal per 80 men (of which only half can be urinals but more than this requirement can be added - just not less). The spectator gender ratio should be 50%/50% women/men in order to calculate the washroom requirements (decades ago, more mens washrooms were added - apparently this is no longer advisable).

It may sound somewhat strange that I would go to the trouble of adding washrooms, however to get a good idea of how much concourse space would be required I did a bit of research on the washroom requirements (there are also industry standards for concessions which I haven't had the chance to add yet). For this reason, in the 3D conceptual drawing that I located at the DND site on the previous page, I have a double concourse on both sides with the required number of washrooms. I have uploaded a 3D model to the Google 3D Warehouse which you can virtually walk through and check view-lines at various seating locations (search fenwick16 or Halifax Stadium). Below is an image of the lower concourse level (this would be the street level concourse above the sunken bowl):

PS: Here are some links that have information on washroom requirements:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tour...ts_en_8211.pdf
Ottawa Landsdown Stadium renovation - http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/publi...n_addition.pdf
General washroom toilet and sink recommendations - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/sp...l/13potty.html
Princeton Stadium Specs - http://www.princeton.edu/football/pustad.htm
Yankee Stadium - http://mlb.mlb.com/nyy/ballpark/new_...comparison.jsp

Street level concourse


Below - both concourse levels with a stairway removed for illustration purposes (the stadium is floating in space which is fitting)

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I still like the idea of a Memorial Stadium for the Halifax Explosion if the DND willow Park site is ever used for a stadium because of its proximity to the explosion site and because the 100th year anniversary is coming up (2017). The Navy also just celebrated its 100th year.

It has been estimated that the Parliment buildings in Ottawa will cost 5 billion dollars to renovate (yes that is billion, not million). Can't Ottawa spare a few million dollars on a Halifax area stadium?

This would also be my choice for a stadium site.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Having all the washrooms centralized would cut the cost of the stadium down and reduce the footprint. This is done in some university level stadiums but I think that any stadium that will eventually (hopefully) be used for the CFL should have washrooms built into the concourses for at least 31,000 people - I added more since I expect that any stadium will be used for large concerts. Perhaps additional washrooms could be accessed at the Forum site for very large concerts of 50,000 (if U2 were playing for example).

When I did the last conceptual stadium (for what it is worth) I decided to add washrooms within the concourses with 1 toilet per 70 women and 1 toilet/urinal per 80 men (of which only half can be urinals but more than this requirement can be added - just not less). The spectator gender ratio should be 50%/50% women/men in order to calculate the washroom requirements (decades ago, more mens washrooms were added - apparently this is no longer advisable).

It may sound somewhat strange that I would go to the trouble of adding washrooms, however to get a good idea of how much concourse space would be required I did a bit of research on the washroom requirements (there are also industry standards for concessions which I haven't had the chance to add yet). For this reason, in the 3D conceptual drawing that I located at the DND site on the previous page, I have a double concourse on both sides with the required number of washrooms. I have uploaded a 3D model to the Google 3D Warehouse which you can virtually walk through and check view-lines at various seating locations (search fenwick16 or Halifax Stadium). Below is an image of the lower concourse level (this would be the street level concourse above the sunken bowl):

Street level concourse


Below - both concourse levels with a stairway removed for illustration purposes (the stadium is floating in space which is fitting)

Great model. Having ample washrooms would be a great marketing tool. No one wants to miss an important part of the game/concert by standing in a long washroom lineup. The Metro Centre is an excellent example of terrible utility, inadequate washroom facilities. Washrooms at stadiums should be like airports only bigger. This would help beer concessions as well.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

Great model. Having ample washrooms would be a great marketing tool. No one wants to miss an important part of the game/concert by standing in a long washroom lineup. The Metro Centre is an excellent example of terrible utility, inadequate washroom facilities. Washrooms at stadiums should be like airports only bigger. This would help beer concessions as well.

Yes, I think that ample washrooms are an important feature. I think that a stadium can be built economically, but having sufficient washrooms is a requirement. Based on what I have read, each washroom toilet adds about $2500 to the stadium cost, so an extra 100 toilets would add about $250,000 (so adding extra washrooms will make it a more spectator-friendly facility at a relatively low cost).

Here are some interesting links on washroom requirements:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tour...ts_en_8211.pdf
Ottawa Landsdown Stadium renovation - http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/publi...n_addition.pdf
General washroom toilet and sink recommendations - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/sp...l/13potty.html
Princeton Stadium Specs - http://www.princeton.edu/football/pustad.htm
Yankee Stadium - http://mlb.mlb.com/nyy/ballpark/new_...comparison.jsp

These are some requirements of a stadium (some are just my opinion, some are a necessity - such as building code requirements):
- Must meet building codes with sufficient exits, railings, aisle widths, step heights, etc.
- Sufficient washrooms to meet current industry standards
- A sufficient number of seats with expandability
- Must have sufficient wheelchair accessible seating (this could be at the top of the lower bowl under the 2nd tier of seating)
- Leave space for future luxury suites and media space (boxes could be built be removing some of the rows at the top of the lower bowl under the 2nd tier of seats)
- Have a roof covering most of the seats
- No seats with obstructed views
- Have space on the field for a Canadian football field, FIFA regulation international soccer field, regulation softball field, little league baseball field. A major league baseball field could be accommodated but large sections of sideline seats would have to be removable which would add to the cost - something like a Fenway Park field could be done if sideline seats were removable - maybe Halifax could get a few preseason Blue Jay games but is it worth adding a few million dollars to the cost? (also more lower bowl seats would be necessary for a major league baseball field which will cut down on the concourse space - to be removable to provide space)
- Have sufficient concourse space - in the case of rain at a large concert people on the field will look for shelter in the concourses. Also people sitting in unprotected areas at concerts and football games will seek shelter in the concourses.
- Have sufficient concession space

[Empire]

Did anyone see the article in Halifax Magazine in the Cityscape section entitled "Eye on the ball" The question: Is anyone actively working to bring a CFL team to Halifax? The short answer is no and Moncton is way ahead in the race......We need a new Mayor........
Reporter Shaina Luck did the story and editor Trevor Adams has his email listed. tadams@metroguide.ca

[worldlyhaligonian]

Fenwick, can you do a render of what a pavillion in front of the stadium would look like? Or the parking stucture at Windsor and Almon with groundfloor retail?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Fenwick, can you do a render of what a pavillion in front of the stadium would look like? Or the parking stucture at Windsor and Almon with groundfloor retail?

I wish that I had that much talent. I did the stadium and added details such as washrooms and even individual seats using SketchUp but to make it look really good would require someone with artistic skills. I am more interested in the size and technical requirements of the stadium itself. I could download components from SketchUp such as trees in order to add a bit of colour. (I think SketchUp is a great program). Have you used this program, worldlyhaligonian? I think that you would enjoy it. Since SketchUp is owned by Google, models can be drawn and then pasted onto map scenes from anywhere in Google Earth. (I see that kph06 has a couple models uploaded)

The pavillion is another issue since that would take a lot of creative ability and imagination. For now, I just made a general shape for the pavillion with a fountain (that I downloaded from Google 3D Warehouse, by Ack). Adding landscaping and some concrete in front would make it stand out more.

I also downloaded a parking garage that was created by Bibelo (this is a model of a real 659 spot garage located in Nijmegen, The Netherlands, that Bibelo drew).

One concern that I have with adding a large parking garage is that it appears as though it is part of the required cost of a stadium (which would probably add at least $10 - $15 million based on other such structures). However, I think a big advantage to locating a stadium in an area with lots of parking in the vicinity is to keep the cost down.

This is just a start.


PS: Since this is a sunken stadium, if I paste it flush with the map, the field disappears and is replaced by the map detail. So I left it floating 21 feet above ground level (it is not too noticeable from the above angle)

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I wish that I had that much talent. I did the stadium and added details such as washrooms and even individual seats using SketchUp but to make it look really good would require someone with artistic skills. I am more interested in the size and technical requirements of the stadium itself. I could download components from SketchUp such as trees in order to add a bit of colour. (I think SketchUp is a great program). Have you used this program, worldlyhaligonian? I think that you would enjoy it. Since SketchUp is owned by Google, models can be drawn and then pasted onto map scenes from anywhere in Google Earth. (I see that kph06 has a couple models uploaded)

The pavillion is another issue since that would take a lot of creative ability and imagination. For now, I just made a general shape for the pavillion with a fountain (that I downloaded from Google 3D Warehouse, by Ack). Adding landscaping and some concrete in front would make it stand out more.

I also downloaded a parking garage that was created by Bibelo (this is a model of a real 659 spot garage located in Nijmegen, The Netherlands, that Bibelo drew).

One concern that I have with adding a large parking garage is that it appears as though it is part of the required cost of a stadium (which would probably add at least $10 - $15 million based on other such structures). However, I think a big advantage to locating a stadium in an area with lots of parking in the vicinity is to keep the cost down.

This is just a start.


PS: Since this is a sunken stadium, if I paste it flush with the map, the field disappears and is replaced by the map detail. So I left it floating 21 feet above ground level (it is not too noticeable from the above angle)

This is amazing! I think this would be the best pitch for a stadium... it solves so many other problems and the parking structure would be a cash cow. They could run buses through the loop. I love the fountain... this is exactly what I imagined...

I bet loblaws/NSLC wouldn't mind a stadium being built there given the likely pick up in business.

It would aslo be interesting to maybe include residential above the parking structure.

Of anything I have seen, this seems to be the most ideal and I doubt there would be too much NIMBYism. With a pedestrian bridge attached to the parking structure, this would be perfect... stairs on the outside and inside and an elevator for the disabled.

The area could be considered a "sports district" and with more residential could be extremely attractive.

[fenwick16]

Thanks worldlyhaligonian. You are easy to please.

I think this is a great location for a stadium. This stadium was drawn to seat 31,000, but with fewer seats it would take up less space and would fit the available width better without having to take over the NSLC store(?) - is that the building attached to the Superstore?). I think a stadium at that location should have sufficient space left at either end (above the endzones) for temporary or permanent expansion.

I think I will do a bit more work on it to show what it would look like from street level (spectators would walk in from street level and be above the lower bowl of seats - similar to walking into the Halifax Metro Centre from Brunswick Street).

[reddog794]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Sports/1200259.html

An interesting article, that is of the same nature. Maybe even a possible avenue.

[halifaxboyns]

Fenwick - thanks so much for the graphic. Now I understand the scale we're talking about here...works pretty good I'd say.

I think you'd have to reduce the park element in front a bit to accommodate a ped bridge across from the parking garage (that way the intersection isn't clogged up when the game starts/ends); but looks like a pretty workable space.

There might even be enough on the Young side to have a bus bay or three for any routes stopping right at the stadium as part of their regular routing plus any special event shuttles.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Fenwick - thanks so much for the graphic. Now I understand the scale we're talking about here...works pretty good I'd say.

I think you'd have to reduce the park element in front a bit to accommodate a ped bridge across from the parking garage (that way the intersection isn't clogged up when the game starts/ends); but looks like a pretty workable space.

There might even be enough on the Young side to have a bus bay or three for any routes stopping right at the stadium as part of their regular routing plus any special event shuttles.

I should point out that the parking garage is 8 storeys - credits to a Bibelo who drew the Nijmegan parking garage structure and posted it to Google 3D Warehouse. A parking garage that is half the height (i.e. 4 storeys) would take up twice the square footage.

I found this image on the internet (Ja-Yi Grandstand). It is built to withstand typhoons. That might be important for the Halifax area and any other stadium on the east coast (to withstand hurricanes and tropical storms). I think that it would look great for a stadium roof. It looks like a giant sail which would be fitting for the Halifax area.
(source: http://pleatedstructures.com/example...llel/interior/ )

[Welkin]

Fenwick- beautiful drawings. They really help to visualize a new stadium.

I must be the only one on this thread that does not think that the Willow Park site is the best location. I still say that it is too squeezed in to build a proper stadium. Sure you can shoehorn a stadium into that lot (if you tear down one of the buildings at the shopping center) but it does not give you much room for anything else. I agree that within a mile radius there is parking at various shopping centers, office towers and misc. businesses; but that makes it a scramble before each game for fans to find an open parking space and paying some individual $30 for the privilege. Adding an eight story parking garage at the Forum helps a little (how many spaces would an eight story parking garage hold?) but now you are talking about getting funding for a new $15 million parking garage.

To me, a simple solution would be to locate the stadium where there is already vast amounts of available parking and plenty of land for a proper stadium with room for a plaza, fountain, memorial statue, team store, VIP parking and etc......... All you need to do is incorporate the stadium with a large retail complex and take advantage of the vast parking lots where fans could park for free. Halifax has a couple of potential sites that fill that criteria. It is not the same as putting a stadium way out in the suburbs surrounded by a sea of $30 parking. This concept of a multi-use retail/stadium development is being used quite effectively in many towns in Great Britain. Check out the link for the New Cardiff City Stadium/retail park complex. Something like that would work very well in Halifax.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=473217

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Welkin

I must be the only one on this thread that does not think that the Willow Park site is the best location. I still say that it is too squeezed in to build a proper stadium. Sure you can shoehorn a stadium into that lot (if you tear down one of the buildings at the shopping center) but it does not give you much room for anything else. I agree that within a mile radius there is parking at various shopping centers, office towers and misc. businesses; but that makes it a scramble before each game for fans to find an open parking space and paying some individual $30 for the privilege. Adding an eight story parking garage at the Forum helps a little (how many spaces would an eight story parking garage hold?) but now you are talking about getting funding for a new $15 million parking garage.

To me, a simple solution would be to locate the stadium where there is already vast amounts of available parking and plenty of land for a proper stadium with room for a plaza, fountain, memorial statue, team store, VIP parking and etc......... All you need to do is incorporate the stadium with a large retail complex and take advantage of the vast parking lots where fans could park for free. Halifax has a couple of potential sites that fill that criteria. It is not the same as putting a stadium way out in the suburbs surrounded by a sea of $30 parking. This concept of a multi-use retail/stadium development is being used quite effectively in many towns in Great Britain. Check out the link for the New Cardiff City Stadium/retail park complex. Something like that would work very well in Halifax.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=473217

The only problem with that idea is that it focuses the effort of building the stadium around parking and not around encouraging other methods to get to the site. While I agree that parking should be provided; a parking structure can work just as well as a sea of parking (and have less of a visual impact).

Plus; although it wouldn't be attached to any permit; if the parking in the lots around there isn't used - it could be used for stadium purposes.

There are really only 2 sites that I could see being close to downtown that would be easily accessible to transit and still be on major transportation routes: this one (CFB Windsor) and Shannon Park. You might be able to fit it in the area next to the forum (if Canada Post and the adjacent commercial developments were expropriated)?

The other thing that I would add is really about planning in the this century - we're seeing a move away from planning for the automobile. It's happening slowly; but it's happening - we had a massive residential development approved here in Calgary (within a 1 minute walk of an LRT station) that had only 1/4 of the parking that the bylaw mandated. We (the development authority) relaxed the parking 10% for being in proximity to the transit and then another 65% because this development pushed the envelope. As part of your condo fees; you'll get a transit pass. So it's this new thinking that facilities like this should use - not just the old; oh let's build a sea of parking.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The only problem with that idea is that it focuses the effort of building the stadium around parking and not around encouraging other methods to get to the site. While I agree that parking should be provided; a parking structure can work just as well as a sea of parking (and have less of a visual impact).

Plus; although it wouldn't be attached to any permit; if the parking in the lots around there isn't used - it could be used for stadium purposes.

There are really only 2 sites that I could see being close to downtown that would be easily accessible to transit and still be on major transportation routes: this one (CFB Windsor) and Shannon Park. You might be able to fit it in the area next to the forum (if Canada Post and the adjacent commercial developments were expropriated)?

The other thing that I would add is really about planning in the this century - we're seeing a move away from planning for the automobile. It's happening slowly; but it's happening - we had a massive residential development approved here in Calgary (within a 1 minute walk of an LRT station) that had only 1/4 of the parking that the bylaw mandated. We (the development authority) relaxed the parking 10% for being in proximity to the transit and then another 65% because this development pushed the envelope. As part of your condo fees; you'll get a transit pass. So it's this new thinking that facilities like this should use - not just the old; oh let's build a sea of parking.

I have to agree with halifaxboyns. We are starting to see a shift away from individual transportation (cars) and a greater emphasis on mass transportation. This has been occurring over the past few decades and Calgary is far ahead of most cities. In my opinion, locating a stadium close to the densest population, mass transportation and existing parking is a good option and will result in more use of the facility. It also reduces sprawl instead of promoting urban sprawl. As gas prices increase this will become more important.

I like the Rogers Centre location in Toronto since it gets people to go downtown and is close to mass transportation. The new Regina retractable dome stadium proposal is being proposed for a site close to downtown Regina (the Saskatchewan government has actually reached an agreement on a site owned by CP).