When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal...

[Docere]

...as the country's leading population, financial, cultural centre?

The narrative is the BQ came to power in 1976 the anglos and HQs left and then Toronto "suddenly" surpassed Montreal as the leading city.

But they were very close in size through the 20th century and a lot of the factors were in place well before the 1970s.

I believe Toronto matched Montreal for headquarters by the 1950s, maybe even earlier.

The St. Lawrence Seaway completion in 1959 benefitted Toronto.

When John Porter was writing the Vertical Mosaic (early 1960s), economic elite seemed evenly split between Toronto and Montreal.

[Architype]

It's even apparent that Vancouver may one day surpass Montreal, at least in some ways, some of the immigration stats suggest that this is possible.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail.../t001b-eng.htm

[Djeffery]

Toronto might have more people and a larger economy, but I think if you took a poll in the rest of the world, more people if they were considering a visit to Canada, would choose Montreal over Toronto as the city they wanted to come to (I would say Vancouver would be ahead as well, maybe even of both). And I think that pisses Torontonians off lol.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Toronto might have more people and a larger economy, but I think if you took a poll in the rest of the world, more people if they were considering a visit to Canada, would choose Montreal over Toronto as the city they wanted to come to (I would say Vancouver would be ahead as well, maybe even of both). And I think that pisses Torontonians off lol.

But Toronto receives far more visitors annually than does Montreal, no?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Toronto might have more people and a larger economy, but I think if you took a poll in the rest of the world, more people if they were considering a visit to Canada, would choose Montreal over Toronto as the city they wanted to come to (I would say Vancouver would be ahead as well, maybe even of both). And I think that pisses Torontonians off lol.

If an actual poll showed that it might annoy them but as long as it's just something you think, I doubt they're too concerned.

[kwoldtimer]

By the way, isn't there already an old thread on this? The subject is not new.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

But Toronto receives far more visitors annually than does Montreal, no?

It does. Toronto has the most international visitors in Canada.
Kind of shoots his assumption/argument out of the water.

[Hali87]

My impression is that Toronto gets a lot more business travelers (and more people passing through Toronto-the-transportation-hub) but Montreal still has more of a reputation as a leisure destination. I could be wrong of course. In my experience I also find that leisure travel to Toronto is usually about visiting specific people, going to specific places or doing specific things, while it's a bit more common for people to go to Montreal and just kind of wing it, knowing that you don't really need to look very hard to find something fun to do or a bunch of interesting things to see, people to meet, etc, at pretty much any hour, any day of the year.

[kool maudit]

Montreal's heyday as the unquestioned metropolis was quite a bit shorter than the common narrative implies... Confederation to World War One might even be a stretch. Toronto had its eyes on the prize since the 1890s.

The concentration of mining shares on the Toronto Stock Exchange was the factor that led to its surpassing the Montreal Exchange. Language is significant, as Bill 101 made it impossible for Montreal to really act as an English-speaking city in daily life, but the Toronto Exchange was larger by market cap by 1930.

[kool maudit]

Toronto has been what it is for quite a bit longer than Montreal was.

[kool maudit]

I think you could argue that Montreal's shot at being a primate city was dependent on it remaining Canada's capital. If this had happened, the events of the Quiet Revolution would likely have been suppressed at pretty much any cost. Of course, they might not even have happened, as francophones may not have maintained their commanding demographic position.

[ssiguy]

Between 1970 to 1980, the difference in population between the two was really just a rounding error but Montreal remained, by a long shot, Canada's premier city.

My dad lived in Windsor in the early 50s and at the time EVERYONE went to Detroit as at the time Detroit was a very vibrant and cosmopolitan city and nearly everyone in London did the same as the 401 wasn't open and more importantly nobody wanted to go to Toronto........too boring, too ugly, and too uninteresting. He said he would take the train to Toronto only if it was for business and he hated every minute of it. He said him and relatives, if wanting to go shopping for the weekend or just have a good time would take the train to Montreal and completely ignore Toronto as there was absolutely nothing there that would entice anybody to go. You made your money in Toronto but had to spend it in Montreal. This when Torontonians would go to Buffalo "for a good time". My Dad said people always said the same joke about Toronto............First prize, a week in Toronto, Second prize, 2 weeks in Toronto, Third prize, 3 weeks in Toronto.

It started to change in the late 60s but it wasn't until the mid-80s that Toronto started to finally shine and slowly take off it's conservative cloak and take the carrot out of it's ass but it would be until the mid-90s before Toronto would securely say it's was Canada's most important city.

Now, for both Canadians and worldwide citizens, Toronto is THE Canadian city and Montreal has been relegated to an also-ran. Equally importantly is that Torontonians now KNOW they live in world class city that everyone on the planet knows about and is no longer in the shawdow of it's once bigger and more glamorous rival down the 401.

[Architype]

The two cities' populations closely parallel each other up until around 1975, so the cause or catalyst is pretty clear.


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_227717868

So, briefly, and simplistically stated, the article says that the size etc. of a city depends upon the size of its hinterland (sphere of influence), and that depends on things like language and culture. When Montreal stopped being a city which is inclusive of English, and became a de facto French speaking city, it's hinterland and sphere of influence, shrunk drastically, inhibiting growth. Montreal today is a city relatively starved of meaningful and copious outside cultural or social interaction (especially in the economic sense from the Anglosphere), except those within the province. Here is an excerpt from an older quoted text.

The English people of Montreal are more than an ethnic minority in a city. They are, in fact, the metropolitan element of Canada’s metropolis. Some among them direct the great economic institutions which operate throughout Canada and beyond the national borders. . . . English Montreal’s hinterland is half a continent. . . . Those of the French who are in dominant positions are concentrated in institutions which have for their hinterland, not the continent, but merely the province

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nd_Toronto#pf3

[kool maudit]

I think a lot of the "but we all knew Montreal was the real metropolis" talk from the 1960-80 era was at best a lagging indicator, or kind of like how upper-crust Brits might have consoled themselves with talk of gentlemanly manners in the 1920s.

Tony Montana was right when he said "first you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women" -- and we can substitute "cultural cachet" or something like that for "women".

Toronto was richer by WW2 and had the Canadian hinterland on lock by the early 1960s.

[kool maudit]

Longtime forumers will know that I am someone who is pretty sensitive to the many ways in which Montreal offered a more promising basis for metropolitan splendor than Toronto, but we can't understand Montreal without being realistic about what happened to its relative economic position within Canada and North America. The blows it absorbed from 1920-1995 were devastating, and the circumstance that gave it the prewar built environment we all love was eviscerated.

[kool maudit]

Montreal's present zeitgeist of focusing on design, infrastructure and general urban maintenance is the city's best option for the moment, and it is good at it. It can put together a square, a street or even a transit system better than anywhere else in Canada by some margin. It has a talent for infrastructure and self-optimization. But I wonder whether the question of its destiny will at some point come back. It's great to be a North American Copenhagen, but there is a point at which it matters that Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark, and that Denmark has a per capita GDP of USD 68,000 (vs. about 38,000 for Quebec).

Jane Jacobs thought that independence would ultimately be good for Montreal.

[acottawa]

What large company was based in Toronto before the 1970?

CN, CP, Air Canada, BMO, Royal Bank, Seagrams, were all based in Montreal. If you travelled to Canada in either the steamship era or the early jet era you were almost certainly arriving in Montreal. When Canada hosted a centennial world’s fair it was in Montreal. When Canada hosted its first Olympics it was in Montreal. When Canada got its first baseball team it was in Montreal.

Toronto was a Milwaukee.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

By the way, isn't there already an old thread on this? The subject is not new.

At least 60 years old by the OPs estimate.

[Acajack]

Coles Notes version: Montreal was so awesome and perfect and then the Frenchies got uppity all of a sudden and ruined everything!

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by acottawa

What large company was based in Toronto before the 1970?

TD, CIBC, Bank of Nova Scotia, Manulife, Barrick Resources, George Weston, Dominion, Multimatic International (Magna), Hudson's Bay Company, Canadian Tire, Carling O'Keefe, Eaton's, General Motors Canada, Avro Canada, Sam The Record Man, Zeller's...

There were a lot of major companies based in Toronto before 1970. It was also the home of essentially all US branch facilities, which was a major factor in vaulting Toronto past Montreal.

Toronto 1930-70 was more like a Chicago than a Milwaukee.