DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by trubador

I'm not going to speak for Seattle, but I have looked at Texas and I could move there and buy a newer, nicer, and bigger house for near half of what mine is worth and pay less than half in property taxes, so there are some states that have no income tax and you can definitely come out ahead.

Just be careful looking at places like Austin, where the property tax rate is something astronomical, like 2.2% or something. Combine that with rapidly inflating home values, and you have a situation where your tax payments can outrun your income growth easily.

We actually moved from Austin because of this. At least with income tax, I only pay more as my income increases. With prop taxes, there's unfortunately no correlation.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by jbssfelix

Just be careful looking at places like Austin, where the property tax rate is something astronomical, like 2.2% or something. Combine that with rapidly inflating home values, and you have a situation where your tax payments can outrun your income growth easily.

We actually moved from Austin because of this. At least with income tax, I only pay more as my income increases. With prop taxes, there's unfortunately no correlation.

Exactly.... folks always think the grass is greener on the other side until you start to crunch the numbers.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

I relocated to KC from Denver about 9 months ago. The housing is cheaper for sure and depending on location in the metro, the property taxes can be lower (not where I am...I pay about $5600/yr on a $300K home). Surprisingly, I haven't found the cost of living to be significantly lower than in Denver. Insurance rates are a lot higher, groceries are much more expensive...I miss you King Soops!

The biggest difference is that you can still find a decent home for $150K.

I grew up in KC (left right after high school) and remember people complaining about property taxes there... at least on the KS side.

Not a fan of the Hen House or Price Chopper? lol! There used to be Food Barn... how provincial!

[Stonemans_rowJ]

The only thing that matters is your net. Meaning if you can make 150k/year in Denver, and have to pay a small amount of state income tax (I have kids and I get a credit for 529 plans too which is not available everywhere), whereas in another locale you may only be able to make half of that in your field, but pay no state income tax.

Which is better? Of course there are myriad variables. For some people geographic arbitrage would be smart and frankly more people should do that to get ahead. Americans used to move more frequently for opportunity. For me, I can make a lot more here than elsewhere and we still feel Denver isn't crowded, and actually to us it feels like a small big city. Everything is relative.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Is anyone else interested in the North Wynkoop project? It looks like they are making significant progress with the Mission ballroom.

Originally Posted by twister244

I love this project. I drive by it every now and again to see what's going on up there. It's a bit muddy as there is this project, along with the infrastructure construction associated with the flood mitigation project the city is doing. I think this project has great potential given it's close proximity to the 38th and Blake station. Totally under the radar, but I can't wait to see how it comes out.

Mission Ballroom, Denver’s fancy new North Wynkoop venue from AEG, will open Aug. 7
3/19/2019 by Ashley Dean - Denverite

If you were betting on The Lumineers to be the local opener, congratulations. (Condolences if you were betting on Nathaniel Rateliff. Those were good odds.) The Denver-based band will play the first show on Wednesday, Aug. 7.

They’ll be followed by the Trey Anastasio Band on Aug. 9 and 10, and co-headliners Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals and Trombone Shorty & Orleans Avenue on Aug. 12.

[TheNightfly]

Lumineers? What a boring band to start a venue with. If you want millennial coffee shop music, start a coffee shop second stage.

[rds70]

New concept review project:

601 E Colfax (Tom's Diner site):

Concept - 8-story with basement, 113 unit apartment building with ground floor amenities to serve the building and 85 parking spaces. 100 foot height.

And the Dikeou Sherman Street rezoning request has finally been officially submitted to the City.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by pablosan

I'm more concerned with city council members. Most of the challengers are against excessive development.

https://denverite.com/2019/03/14/in-...e-challengers/

https://denverite.com/2019/03/14/den...ncil-election/

https://denverite.com/2019/03/14/in-...t-and-stop-it/

YIMBY Denver council and mayoral endorsements are out - https://www.yimbydenver.com/

Also, the detailed candidate responses from about 30 candidates can be found here - https://static.wixstatic.com/ugd/6b0...9cfc4b040f.pdf

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by rds70

New concept review project:

601 E Colfax (Tom's Diner site):



And the Dikeou Sherman Street rezoning request has finally been officially submitted to the City.

I wonder if the toms diner proposal is affordable housing? That’s a tough corner.

Will be interesting to see if dikeou rezoning goes through. It needs to happen but I also don’t feel like anyone should be rewarding those parking lot slumlords.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by TheNightfly

Lumineers? What a boring band to start a venue with. If you want millennial coffee shop music, start a coffee shop second stage.

Whether you like The Lumineers or not, getting them to open a 4,000 person venue is a pretty big win. They sell out Fiddlers for a multi-night run and other 15K+ venues regularly.

[HighSt.]

Originally Posted by rds70

New concept review project:

601 E Colfax (Tom's Diner site):

Denver can't let Tom's go quietly! It is one of the last remaining vestiges of the White Spot architectural legacy, and definitely the most prominent bit of Googie architecture in Denver.


Denver seems to have a pretty high failure rate when it comes to saving Modernist gems:

- In the 90's, Denver let Pei's paraboloid at Zeckendorf Plaza be torn down for the Adam's Mark black box.

- Denver let Lawrence Halperin's Skyline Park become a flat, usually lifeless beer garden/ice rink because it attracted "the shady people."

- Just recently, after getting all the feel-good encouragement of having the 9th & Colorado "research bridge" saved, it got the axe too because it was going to be "too tricky" to re-use.


Now, in 2019, we're going to let a nearly un-molested gem of a mid-century diner, complete with stone facade, original built-in's and tile, a dramatic roofline, etc., go for what will probably end up being an EIFS-n'-sheet metal mess? When there's still so many parking lots in Capitol Hill/Uptown? Isn't there a restauranteur in Denver who'd like to capitalize on the architectural value and take this upmarket? Lord knows nobody would even think about spending today's money on architectural details like the ones this place has in spades.

I'm going to puke. Who do I need to call? Can CHUN take action of some kind? If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears and I'm literally willing to go to bat anywhere to keep Tom's from being leveled.

[corey]

Thank you High Street for speaking up for Tom’s Diner! Tom’s was one of the White Spots designed by famous googie architects Armet and Davis. They created most of the best googie diners around Los Angeles. A few years ago we lost another one of their diners when the Hooters on Colorado Blvd was demo’d for a generic strip mall. They also designed the Sam’s No. 3 on 15th Street. I would HATE to see Sam’s get torn down at some point. I think that it is awesome that there is a googie diner right downtown. Sam’s is a real asset for downtown because it is one of the only family restaurants left. When my son was young we would go there a lot if we were going to a show at the DCPA or something. Children really aren’t into the chi chi and trendy restaurants, and those places rarely have much on the menu for children. I complained on here when the previous Big Top building that housed a laundromat on 1st Avenue in Cherry Creek was demo’d for a CU clinic and I actually got a lot of hostility from others on this site. I thought that the amazing curved concrete roof of that building could have been moved and repurposed. It would have made an amazing pavilion at a park, for example. There are only a few Big Top buildings left around Denver. Fortunately, Snarf’s Sandwiches renovated the one on 38th Ave near Sheridan. I am also thrilled Snarf’s recently renovated the very original Sinclair station on South Broadway. Otherwise, Denver is WAY behind the curve compared to Los Angeles for saving mid-century architecture and vintage neon signs. There are numerous googie and mcm buildings around town that I know are in eminent danger of being torn down. The worst thing about these losses is that the buildings replacing them have always been generic crap. The building that replaced Pei’s pyramid building is a perfect example of this.

I would LOVE to see the cool mcm Riviera Motel on Colfax in Aurora get saved and repurposed like how the Broadway Manor Motel in the Golden Triangle was converted to small offices. The Riviera could be used for artist studios, for example. The Riviera’s incredible neon sign was built by the same company that did the neon signs at Lakeside Amusement Park, which is another Denver treasure that I am very worried about being lost.

[Curtis Park]

Originally Posted by corey

I am also thrilled Snarf’s recently renovated the very original Sinclair station on South Broadway. Otherwise, Denver is WAY behind the curve compared to Los Angeles for saving mid-century architecture and vintage neon signs. There are numerous googie and mcm buildings around town that I know are in eminent danger of being torn down. .

Good news, for another former gas station, this one a Phillip's 66.
Former muffler shop along East Colfax to be converted to pizzeria.
https://businessden.com/2019/03/20/f...d-to-pizzeria/

[Ich]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

one on hand this board wants developers to come in and be able to do anything they want. complete unfettered access to do anything ever.

now we're trying to save old diners taking up valuable land that are the anthesis of urbanism.

i find it disturbing that folks here are more worried about saving some old restaurants and such while the actual people are getting crushed with these kinds of buildings in the wrong places.

this is exactly what any of you should be advocating. density on busy urban corridors with great pedestrian access. i'm sorry we lose cool buildings, but this is 100 times better than building massive condos on top of the mexican villages in Cole and Sloan's Lake.

This forum is made up of a lot different members with different opinions. I agree, Toms isn’t that big of a deal to save. Never came across as a mid century gem and would much rather see density along Colfax. But some people get an emotional attachment to buildings I guess. Much how you got attached to the lot in Cole. And I would argue the same about urbanism as that lot is located within walking distance of two light rail stations, is located right outside the downtown core, provides a grocery store in a food desert and provides more affordable housing than was originally there.

[Curtis Park]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

i'm sorry we lose cool buildings, but this is 100 times better than building massive condos on top of the mexican villages in Cole and Sloan's Lake.

Oh man, there's a Mexican village in Cole? I need to get over there!

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by corey

Thank you High Street for speaking up for Tom’s Diner! Tom’s was one of the White Spots designed by famous googie architects Armet and Davis. They created most of the best googie diners around Los Angeles. A few years ago we lost another one of their diners when the Hooters on Colorado Blvd was demo’d for a generic strip mall. They also designed the Sam’s No. 3 on 15th Street. I would HATE to see Sam’s get torn down at some point. I think that it is awesome that there is a googie diner right downtown. Sam’s is a real asset for downtown because it is one of the only family restaurants left. When my son was young we would go there a lot if we were going to a show at the DCPA or something. Children really aren’t into the chi chi and trendy restaurants, and those places rarely have much on the menu for children. I complained on here when the previous Big Top building that housed a laundromat on 1st Avenue in Cherry Creek was demo’d for a CU clinic and I actually got a lot of hostility from others on this site. I thought that the amazing curved concrete roof of that building could have been moved and repurposed. It would have made an amazing pavilion at a park, for example. There are only a few Big Top buildings left around Denver. Fortunately, Snarf’s Sandwiches renovated the one on 38th Ave near Sheridan. I am also thrilled Snarf’s recently renovated the very original Sinclair station on South Broadway. Otherwise, Denver is WAY behind the curve compared to Los Angeles for saving mid-century architecture and vintage neon signs. There are numerous googie and mcm buildings around town that I know are in eminent danger of being torn down. The worst thing about these losses is that the buildings replacing them have always been generic crap. The building that replaced Pei’s pyramid building is a perfect example of this.

I would LOVE to see the cool mcm Riviera Motel on Colfax in Aurora get saved and repurposed like how the Broadway Manor Motel in the Golden Triangle was converted to small offices. The Riviera could be used for artist studios, for example. The Riviera’s incredible neon sign was built by the same company that did the neon signs at Lakeside Amusement Park, which is another Denver treasure that I am very worried about being lost.

I love the old diners and would like them saved if they're true mid-century architecture. I moved here from the LA area 14 years ago and there are so many of them out there. There is a much greater appreciation for mid-century than there was even 20 years ago. And Denver seems to be lacking in diners... or maybe it's just where I live that we don't have them.

[fleury]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

one on hand this board wants developers to come in and be able to do anything they want. complete unfettered access to do anything ever.

now we're trying to save old diners taking up valuable land that are the anthesis of urbanism.

i find it disturbing that folks here are more worried about saving some old restaurants and such while the actual people are getting crushed with these kinds of buildings in the wrong places.

this is exactly what any of you should be advocating. density on busy urban corridors with great pedestrian access. i'm sorry we lose cool buildings, but this is 100 times better than building massive condos on top of the mexican villages in Cole and Sloan's Lake.

There's so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin. First of all, there are plenty of small buildings in downtowns that should be preserved. They offer unique pedestrian experiences and break up the monotony of all the cheap crap that is going up. Plus this one in particular has an incredible history and is beautiful...go to palm springs and see the Ace Hotel restaurant Kings Highway to see how this could be restored to be an awesome trendy spot that celebrates our history. Denver knocked down 75% of our history already, why continue?

Second, Mexican villages of Sloans and Cole? Get a clue man. You sound like an idiot.

#troll

[HighSt.]

Here’s the thing about preservationist arguements, especially with something like Tom’s, where the building is historic but doesn’t fall into the same kind of “historic” arena as something like the Molly Brown house:

The aesthetic and historical “value” of these structures is graded on a curve. Meaning, right now, Tom’s is “not that valuable.” There are a few other structures in the area from the same time period, done by the same architects, etc. However, as time inexorably marches forward, these structures will become more valuable as more of them are lost to things like fire, redevelopment, total remodels, etc.

The White Spot at the corner of Colfax and Speer is either going to be leveled by the City and County government, or leveled by a private developer to rid that strip of its vacant, low-rise office bldgs. A White Spot that used to exist at the corner of Broadway and 8th was torn down for a parking lot in ‘03, and finally got an itty bitty little bank building in 2009 that looks to be even smaller than the diner it replaced! The White Spots elsewhere in Denver and on Colfax have been very heavily modified, and will face the same redevelopment pressure. Sam’s downtown could very well see it’s run ended in the near future by the redevelopment of the adjacent, underutilized lots.

In another 20 years when all of the other Amet and Davis buildings in Denver have been leveled, people will be surprised that the Colfax location fell without closer consideration for preservation.

Also: even though you could get another 7 stories of space out of this lot, and could certainly put a shitton more rentable sq ft on the parcel, that doesn’t automatically make an 8-story bulilding “better urbanism”. What if the developer sees the “rough corner” the parcel sits on and decides that they don’t want retail in the mix? Congrats, on your are now at a net deficit of public space and the urbanism argument doesn’t work nearly as well.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by corey

They created most of the best googie diners around Los Angeles. ... They also designed the Sam’s No. 3 on 15th Street. I would HATE to see Sam’s get torn down at some point. I think that it is awesome that there is a googie diner right downtown. Sam’s is a real asset for downtown because it is one of the only family restaurants left. When my son was young we would go there a lot if we were going to a show at the DCPA or something.

I left home a little before 5:00 AM on my trip thru Denver last year in June. It was after 9:00 AM when I reached DUS (I lost an hour from time change). I was starving so the first thing I did was make my way over to Sam's No. 3. I was a bit disappointed nobody recognized me (I kid) and even though it wasn't heart-healthy I enjoyed a great 3-egg Denver omelet along with 3 tall glasses of fresh tap water. On my way out, as I pulled my luggage behind me, two young lads opened both doors for my easy exit. I thanked each and gave them a fist bump.

https://samsno3.com/2018/10/31/explo...nver-omelette/

There has been great speculation as to the real origin of the Denver Omelette. A plaque on California Street in downtown Denver states that the Denver Omelette came into existence due to the desperate attempts of pioneers who were trying to mask the taste of rotten eggs by adding ham, green pepper, and onion.

So what is the real story behind the Denver Omelette? The simple answer is, nobody knows. We don’t know if it matters all too much. What’s important is that our Denver Omelette at Sam’s No. 3 is absolutely delicious.

Originally Posted by HighSt.

The White Spot at the corner of Colfax and Speer is either going to be leveled by the City and County government, or leveled by a private developer to rid that strip of its vacant, low-rise office bldgs. A White Spot that used to exist at the corner of Broadway and 8th was torn down for a parking lot in ‘03, and finally got an itty bitty little bank building in 2009 that looks to be even smaller than the diner it replaced!

Both locations were popular (with me) for late night hunger before heading home.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

The apparent declining demand to live in Denver is good news to me. Denver was growing too fast, and costs were increasing too much. It's long been obvious that this party couldn't last forever. Not surprisingly, we've reached a breaking point and now prices seem to have stabilized and, perhaps, begun to decline.

I still see plenty of momentum for the next couple of years. As noted above there have been some new starts and prep work for others. It feels like 'most' who have land in and around downtown feel good about proceeding and many still have funding ability. With Avalon Bay now lurking I'd guess they stand at the ready to take over any projects unable to find funding.

For the near term I think developers are still seeing Denver as a solid long term opportunity. Maybe five years from now things will feel different but who knows that far out?

The Fed for their part put further rate increases on hold today anticipating some softening with the economy in 2019. It could be just the mild pause that refreshes real estate investment from somewhat lower interest rates.

Let's update with some breaking news

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n..._news_headline

Real estate investors continue to point to Denver as a top market for their next big purchase. A recent CBRE (NYSE: CBRE) survey ranked Denver as the fifth most attractive city for property investment in the Americas:

• Los Angeles/Southern California
• Dallas/Fort Worth
• Washington, D.C.
• San Francisco/Northern California & Seattle (tie)
• Denver & Atlanta (tie)
• Orlando
• New York
• Nashville, Houston & Chicago (tie)
• Phoenix
• Boston, Miami/South Florida & Minneapolis/St. Paul (tie)

This marks the third straight year that Denver has advanced in the rankings. It was ranked seventh last year, before jumping two spots to No. 5 for 2019 to tie with Atlanta. In 2016, Denver ranked ninth.

Denver is considered a Tier II market, along with Dallas, Atlanta, Houston and Phoenix. Orlando was the highest-ranked tier III market.

If investors want to buy then developers will willingly fill their dreams.