The Retail Thread

[MOPIdaho]

If this leads to the demolition of that horrible Nordstom building I will be elated.

[downtownpdx]

Just a little tidbit, I was in the shop Boys Fort on SW 9th & Morrison yesterday, and asked an owner about the upcoming renovation of the parking garage. He said they're moving their shop to the Dekum Building on SW 3rd & Washington, and their current retail space will be broken up into several smaller ones with the renovation. Looking forward to this project.

Walking up Morrison, I couldn't help but feel like downtown's main retail artery should be so much better. Nordstrom creates this long almost blank wall, and across the street that empty corner awaits redevelopment but in the meantime attracts homeless campers. Then Charles Schwab moves in the prime retail space in the PAW tower, which should be a great restaurant spot...or anything really, other than a financial advisor? What were they thinking leasing that ... Anyway I'm hoping the garage renovation helps, and I can't imagine that empty Park & Morrison corner would remain undeveloped for much longer. Wasn't it going to be a McDonald's at one point?

[2oh1]

Has anybody noticed that Abercrombie & Fitch moved out of their space diagonally across the street from Pioneer Square? I'm glad! That's such a great location, but the way they used it was terrible, with a darkened entry and darkened windows. Hopefully we'll get something much better in that location.

[Derek]

There's quite a few shops trapped in the basement of Pioneer Square that would do wonders with a street location...

[downtownpdx]

I agree, Abercrombie was a terrible tenant as far as street presence with the darkened windows. Great corner that deserves much better retail design.

[babs]

Originally Posted by downtownpdx

I agree, Abercrombie was a terrible tenant as far as street presence with the darkened windows. Great corner that deserves much better retail design.

Retail really seems to be struggling in the heart of Portland. While Apple is rocking, the rest of the area seems to struggling to get tenants. Pioneer Place is deserted most of the time, even the Moonstruck kiosk just closed and I'm not sure what's going on with the top floor. The retail at Park Avenue West doesn't seem to be getting much interest while Charles Schwab on the Morrison side isn't going to do much for foot traffic. The old Ross/dd's discount should be a nice prime location but there are no takers. And then there is the forthcoming closure of Macy's to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, retail is working well in other areas. The Pearl, West End, NW 23rd all seem to be doing well and perhaps these newer areas are draining off crucial customers.

[bvpcvm]

Is Macy's really closing, or is that speculation?

[downtownpdx]

Yeah with the economy doing well, new hotels/ growing tourism, strong office demand etc., it's strange to see these vacancies. Part of it may be that Portland is all about quirky, local and independent. Downtown's main core is mostly chains, and locals don't venture into dt like they did 20 years ago since all the neighborhoods have exploded with retail. Pioneer Place is showing its age as an 80s era mall. ... I think of the vitality that a 50s/60s mall would have at the time PP was built. And millennials aren't into malls like previous generations anyway.

Hard to pinpoint the ups and downs of retail, but part of me hopes the James Beard market revitalizes the waterfront end of dt. They need to revamp the parking garage retail spaces at 3rd/Morrison. Someone needs to demolish that old Ross /dd's building and start over, at least the eastern half.

Meanwhile the Voodoo /Ankeny area is benefiting from the new public plaza and improved pedestrian focus along 2nd / 3rd. And the West End has lots of local retail in an area that was lifeless just a decade ago.

We'll see, maybe in the next decade there'll be some major changes to the "traditional" retail core around Morrison Street. These vacancies could fill with tenants new to the Portland market and spark a revival. But it certainly doesn't seem to have much of its own momentum right now, and the city should be paying attention since this is the first thing most visitors experience.

[babs]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Is Macy's really closing, or is that speculation?

The Macy's part of the building is listed for sale and they have said 100 stores are closing after the holidays. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by babs

Retail really seems to be struggling in the heart of Portland. While Apple is rocking, the rest of the area seems to struggling to get tenants. Pioneer Place is deserted most of the time, even the Moonstruck kiosk just closed and I'm not sure what's going on with the top floor. The retail at Park Avenue West doesn't seem to be getting much interest while Charles Schwab on the Morrison side isn't going to do much for foot traffic. The old Ross/dd's discount should be a nice prime location but there are no takers. And then there is the forthcoming closure of Macy's to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, retail is working well in other areas. The Pearl, West End, NW 23rd all seem to be doing well and perhaps these newer areas are draining off crucial customers.

With the condition downtown has been in these past four years, it isn't a surprise that retail is struggling in downtown. Why would anyone want to spend a day shopping while being harassed by aggressive panhandlers, seeing people shoot up on the sidewalks, and just blatant public urination? All three of these things I have had to deal with just this past week in downtown. Combine that with all our trendy neighborhoods and cheap rides with Uber, it is very easy for someone staying downtown to take a quick ride over to North Williams to get that Portlandy feel without having to deal with all the trashiness that is downtown.

The City Council, and especially Hales has done a piss poor job with this city and has really let the downtown area go downhill bad over the past four years. Here's hoping that Wheeler will do more for the quality of downtown so that business can thrive like they use to.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

With the condition downtown has been in these past four years, it isn't a surprise that retail is struggling in downtown. Why would anyone want to spend a day shopping while being harassed by aggressive panhandlers, seeing people shoot up on the sidewalks, and just blatant public urination? All three of these things I have had to deal with just this past week in downtown. Combine that with all our trendy neighborhoods and cheap rides with Uber, it is very easy for someone staying downtown to take a quick ride over to North Williams to get that Portlandy feel without having to deal with all the trashiness that is downtown.

The City Council, and especially Hales has done a piss poor job with this city and has really let the downtown area go downhill bad over the past four years. Here's hoping that Wheeler will do more for the quality of downtown so that business can thrive like they use to.

I'm completely sympathetic to complaints about the homeless. But even in my Lloyd neighborhood, I have to run a gauntlet of panhandlers. It does distress me that Macy's will be leaving, too, but that doesn't appear to have much to do with downtown so much as the changing face of retail generally. Traditional department stores are no longer the draws they once were. Pioneer Place was, in my opinion, always a mistake and I don't think it ever will fulfill its initial promise.

Downtown still has real-world retail, however, in contrast Williams (which I don't think of as a quintessential Portland experience so much as a developing urban neighborhood with some good bars and restaurants). NW 23rd Ave excels at generic upscale chains, which is okay but not quite "Portland". There's also quite a bit of investment going on downtown, particularly new hotels. The danger, I think, is less from the homeless than the area getting too pricey from aggressive real-estate marketers. One reason why you have Charles Schwab and not a restaurant at PAW is the high premiums they're demanding. Keeping downtown in balance is going to be the real struggle going forward, particularly as parking lots get developed. We're gradually eroding the incubator spaces where interesting stores would normally go. This is one reason why I hate to see old buildings torn down. The retail spaces that emerge from new construction are almost always overpriced and lifeless. I have no solution for the homeless problem. Homelessness is a national issue that defies local solutions - the more you do to try and fix it locally, the worse it will get because that city gets a reputation as a landing spot for the impaired and improvident. I suspect this is an issue of "lifeboat ethics" we really aren't comfortable having.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

With the condition downtown has been in these past four years, it isn't a surprise that retail is struggling in downtown. Why would anyone want to spend a day shopping while being harassed by aggressive panhandlers, seeing people shoot up on the sidewalks, and just blatant public urination? All three of these things I have had to deal with just this past week in downtown.

THIS.

We need to turn downtown into a fun place to shop again, and that process has to begin with cleaning the city up and putting an emphasis on public safety. Things have gotten pretty bad.

I've lived downtown since 2002, plus some time in the late 90s, so I can't compare downtown's condition today to what it was in the 60s, 70s & 80s, but I can say without a doubt that compared to anything I've known since the 90s, it's bad. And it's getting worse.

I don't think Portland ever recovered from the collapse of Occupy Portland back in 2011. The Occupy camps turned downtown into a war zone when the Occupy leaders (lol) lost control of their camps. So many people flooded into those camps for a police-free drug haven, and when the camps were evicted, those newcomers never left. They scattered in and around downtown.

That's part of the challenge of handling Portland's homeless crisis. Too often, people fail to recognize that the "homeless" are NOT one group. Many are in desperate need of help. But many are drifters, living the lifestyle. I wish people would stop referring to the drifters as "the homeless" because that just makes matters worse.

There's always been a subculture of drifters, but it seems like something changed & brought them (mostly men) into the city.

I had a date a few months ago with a woman who lives in the burbs. We were walking to the Virginia Cafe & her exact words were "Jesus, it's like the Walking Dead around here. This is why I don't come downtown anymore." She wasn't talking about the homeless. She was talking about the drifters. They wander in packs, or just hang out wherever they can find enough space for the group to relax, get high and do business buying & selling drugs.

The city is doing very little about it, possibly due to short term thinking of one term mayor after one term mayor.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The City Council, and especially Hales has done a piss poor job with this city and has really let the downtown area go downhill bad over the past four years. Here's hoping that Wheeler will do more for the quality of downtown so that business can thrive like they use to.

Absolutely. And as much as I liked Sam Adams, he did a poor job of handling it too. We've had a string of one term mayors & that's been bad for the city. I have high hopes for Wheeler, but... who knows.

[MOPIdaho]

I agree with you 100% 2oh1. When I moved here in 2001 the homeless population seemed to be balanced with the rest of the city. Working in a ER I interact daily with this population and they are ALL from out of state. The occupy movement seem to have sent the message that Portland loves the homeless.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by MOPIdaho

I agree with you 100% 2oh1. When I moved here in 2001 the homeless population seemed to be balanced with the rest of the city. Working in a ER I interact daily with this population and they are ALL from out of state. The occupy movement seem to have sent the message that Portland loves the homeless.

Thank you! I disagree slightly. I think the way the city handled the collapse of the Occupy camps (when they were overrun with drifters and drugs) sent the message that Portland is where it's at, for drifters & hard drugs.

I cannot stress this enough: the drifters are not the homeless. They're two separate groups. The homeless need help. I have no clue how the city should deal with the drifters other than to push them out.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by soleri

I'm completely sympathetic to complaints about the homeless. But even in my Lloyd neighborhood, I have to run a gauntlet of panhandlers. It does distress me that Macy's will be leaving, too, but that doesn't appear to have much to do with downtown so much as the changing face of retail generally. Traditional department stores are no longer the draws they once were. Pioneer Place was, in my opinion, always a mistake and I don't think it ever will fulfill its initial promise.

Downtown still has real-world retail, however, in contrast Williams (which I don't think of as a quintessential Portland experience so much as a developing urban neighborhood with some good bars and restaurants). NW 23rd Ave excels at generic upscale chains, which is okay but not quite "Portland". There's also quite a bit of investment going on downtown, particularly new hotels. The danger, I think, is less from the homeless than the area getting too pricey from aggressive real-estate marketers. One reason why you have Charles Schwab and not a restaurant at PAW is the high premiums they're demanding. Keeping downtown in balance is going to be the real struggle going forward, particularly as parking lots get developed. We're gradually eroding the incubator spaces where interesting stores would normally go. This is one reason why I hate to see old buildings torn down. The retail spaces that emerge from new construction are almost always overpriced and lifeless. I have no solution for the homeless problem. Homelessness is a national issue that defies local solutions - the more you do to try and fix it locally, the worse it will get because that city gets a reputation as a landing spot for the impaired and improvident. I suspect this is an issue of "lifeboat ethics" we really aren't comfortable having.

I am one who has always been sympathetic when it comes to the homeless since I have interacted with them daily since I first moved to Portland. The difference in these past four years has been the number of people I see that are voluntarily homeless. That is what needs to be stopped, so that we can actually help those that are actually in need.

As for Pioneer Place, even with it becoming more outdated, I do like the fact that it is still made up of individual blocks rather than merging several blocks together to create a suburban mall in the middle of the city like so many other cities did. It would be easier for Pioneer Place to redevelop one or all of their blocks, and still keep in line with the current street grid. With how retail is changing, it would be interesting to see Pioneer Square become more of a communal space of some sort rather than just a mall of shops.

I was just commenting how great it is to still see so many old buildings along 1st in downtown when waiting for the train at the Oak St Station. I do agree, it is important to keep as many of the old buildings that we can to prevent downtown from looking all of its character and variety of spaces.

As for the homeless issues in the city. I have some ideas that are more on the aggressive side, but I feel like they would tackle the bigger issue to help pair it down and make it easier to tackle the real problems.

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Absolutely. And as much as I liked Sam Adams, he did a poor job of handling it too. We've had a string of one term mayors & that's been bad for the city. I have high hopes for Wheeler, but... who knows.

It makes me really miss Vera Katz and the Council she had working around her, I feel like they truly cared about the future of Portland and the people in the city. I hope to see this city get back to that kind of political leaders.

[scleeb]

The former ROSS/DD's space actually spans two separately owned buildings, The 620 Building to the West and the Richmond Building to the East. This site is currently the subject of a lawsuit between ROSS and two Landlords regarding ROSS' end-of-lease obligations. It is my understanding that the Richmond Building (east) will be renovated once the lawsuit is resolved. Neither building will be demolished.

[babs]

Regarding Pioneer Place, I think the building would be the best place for the James Beard Market. It already exists, can easily be remodeled, would bring some needed energy to the center of the city and can probably happen much faster than fundraising for a new building. Let's hope Ted Wheeler can help make this happen.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by babs

Regarding Pioneer Place, I think the building would be the best place for the James Beard Market. It already exists, can easily be remodeled, would bring some needed energy to the center of the city and can probably happen much faster than fundraising for a new building. Let's hope Ted Wheeler can help make this happen.

I like that idea a LOT. My biggest criticism of having it under the Morrison Bridge ramps is that it's too far away from the action. Pioneer Place is right at the crossroads. Well, the newer of the two buildings is probably more viable, since it's never been very busy, but it's still much closer than the Morrison Bridge site.

I've always thought there were roughly three audiences for the market. People who live and work downtown, people who work downtown and commute and, more recently, people who live downtown and commute out. For all three of these sets of people, having the market anywhere other than as close as possible to Pioneer Courthouse will limit its appeal. If I work in the Pearl and live in Orenco, am I going to go down to the Morrison Bridgehead to get vegetables on my way home? Maybe if the weather's good, but on a drizzly winter evening, no way. Likewise, if I work at the KOIN tower and live in Goose Hollow, how convenient is it for me to stop by the Morrison Bridgehead? Again, summertime, sure. Winter, not really.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by scleeb

The former ROSS/DD's space actually spans two separately owned buildings, The 620 Building to the West and the Richmond Building to the East. This site is currently the subject of a lawsuit between ROSS and two Landlords regarding ROSS' end-of-lease obligations. It is my understanding that the Richmond Building (east) will be renovated once the lawsuit is resolved. Neither building will be demolished.

Thanks for the info, I was actually curious what actually happened there. Also good to hear neither building will be torn down.

[PdX Farr]

The waterfront has become really sketchy as well. Has been taken over by drifters, street kids and homeless. Some of them are very aggressive.