Sacramento Proposal/Approval/Construction Thread - III

[urban_encounter]

I have to agree with both innov8 and snfenoc. There is a lot of exciting smaller projects happening in Sacramento along K street and R street corridors. While Sacramento will always be "home" I honestly I have no idea why this sub-forum still exists??? This is a skyscraper forum and Sacramento is one of the few mid to large sized metro areas that isn't really building skyscrapers. There's really not much to get excited about in terms of skyscraper proposals and there's nothing on the horizon to get excited about.

[innov8]

Originally Posted by Korey

Eh innov8 is just a grumpy old bastard anyways. The pressure from the demand for central city living will eventually get good things built here. We just have to be patient. Sigh.

I do wish the Metropolitan got off the ground, glad Saca still has the land and hopeful he pulls it off sometime. Any news from the hole in the ground? There was some noise from PERS and bleh renderings a while back but seems to have been just a tease like Vanir.

Maybe I am a grumpy old bastard. However, I have also seen this seinaro
play out so many times before and they usually end by quietly fading away.
The mid to late 1980’s were the best years for high-rise private investment
in Sacramento ending in 1992. Lots of private towers rose up, Emerald
Tower, Renaissance Tower, Wells Fargo, Park Tower, 1201 K Street Tower.
Back then, it would take one or two years for proposals to be approved by
the city. This drawn-out timeline killed off many other high-rise applications
in addition to city imposed height restrictions along R Street and the Capitol
View Protection while proposals were a year or more into the entitlement/permit process.
The State built Capitol Square during that same period.

The 1990’s mostly saw State and Federal towers rise like the US Federal
Court House, Cal EPA Tower, General Service Bldg., Dept. of Justice Building.
Private developments were the Esquire Plaza and Sheraton Grand with
heavy subsidies. The Sheraton project introduced subsidies as way finance a
private project in the grid, which is now the norm here. Ever since then,
most developers planning to build big projects also have their hand out to
the city… The Towers almost got $10 million from the city.

The 2000’s saw about the same in private development as the 1990’s.
The Meridian Plaza, 500 Capitol Mall, Marriott Residence Inn and US Bank
Tower. The developer for US Bank Tower bought the city block for $1 from
the city in the 1990’s; again, this is a subsidy by the city, which made this
project possible. A highlight from that same period was 500 Capitol Mall,
they financed the tower their self. A project of this size being built on
speculation in Sacramento is unheard of and the bet paid off for them.

Now in this decade, we have an arena and hotel/condo tower being built
with heavy subsidies by the city to the tune of $272.9 million in addition
to a mega land give away.

My lack of optimism is based the downward trend of these cycles. Is there a
group of deep pocket developers waiting for just the right moment to
finance our skyline with offices and condominiums? My guess is no.
Especially with vast swaths of empty land, close by in West Sac & Natomas.
I have been a HUGE cheerleader of downtown development for decades,
but I also look at the 28-month delay Vanir Tower is enduring as an echo of
something we have all seen before. I would love to be proven wrong with
Vanir, really! If built it will probably be the only high-rise office built during
this decade. Small projects are thriving in the city and we should be thankful for those.

[Justbuildit]

I like the design of the new hotel. It's not tall, but from what I can see it looks like it will have a big impact improving downtown.

[ltsmotorsport]

For those here concerned about progress, the owner of the Italian deli/grocer at the site of the 19J project is closing at the end of April. While the store will be missed, his retirement signals forward momentum for the new development.

Link to story with video http://www.kcra.com/article/sacramen...h-rise/9099486

[snfenoc]

Originally Posted by ltsmotorsport

For those here concerned about progress, the owner of the Italian deli/grocer at the site of the 19J project is closing at the end of April. While the store will be missed, his retirement signals forward momentum for the new development.

Link to story with video http://www.kcra.com/article/sacramen...h-rise/9099486

We said the same about the demolition of the old Sacramento Union building.

[CAGeoNerd]

Originally Posted by ltsmotorsport

For those here concerned about progress, the owner of the Italian deli/grocer at the site of the 19J project is closing at the end of April. While the store will be missed, his retirement signals forward momentum for the new development.

Link to story with video http://www.kcra.com/article/sacramen...h-rise/9099486

There was also the Thai restaurant Coconut in that location and they already moved locations a few weeks ago.

[Pistola916]

Originally Posted by CAGeoNerd

There was also the Thai restaurant Coconut in that location and they already moved locations a few weeks ago.

But remember, according to Innov8, just because there are pretty renderings on an architect's website, or in this case, a restaurant moved to a different location, doesn't mean the project is any closer to being reality.

[yolonative]

Originally Posted by CAGeoNerd

There was also the Thai restaurant Coconut in that location and they already moved locations a few weeks ago.

Actually they moved for the other proposed residential tower (Yamanee on 25th and J), not the same as Italian Imports (19J at 19th and J).

[CAGeoNerd]

Originally Posted by yolonative

Actually they moved for the other proposed residential tower (Yamanee on 25th and J), not the same as Italian Imports (19J at 19th and J).

Aha! Well I guess I didn't even think of there being multiple J Street projects, I'm happy to be wrong here.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by Pistola916

But remember, according to Innov8, just because there are pretty renderings on an architect's website, or in this case, a restaurant moved to a different location, doesn't mean the project is any closer to being reality.

innov8 is 100% correct. Until a building goes vertical with steel and/or concrete, it's nothing more than a proposal. If there's any doubt, drive out to Sleep Train Arena and take a look at the rusting rebar and crumbling concrete of the Arco Park (stadium) foundation. If that's still not convincing, take a walk past 301 Capital Mall and count the piles that have been sitting in that hole in the ground (for a decade). How many businesses were relocated for the never built high rise condominium at 11th & J streets? I think it was called Cathedral Square? Here in Chicago we have our own hole in the ground from the failed "Chicago Spire." Proposals are nothing more than that.

[Deno]

So much optimism here.

[yolonative]

Originally Posted by urban_encounter

innov8 is 100% correct. Until a building goes vertical with steel and/or concrete, it's nothing more than a proposal. If there's any doubt, drive out to Sleep Train Arena and take a look at the rusting rebar and crumbling concrete of the Arco Park (stadium) foundation. If that's still not convincing, take a walk past 301 Capital Mall and count the piles that have been sitting in that hole in the ground (for a decade). How many businesses were relocated for the never built high rise condominium at 11th & J streets? I think it was called Cathedral Square? Here in Chicago we have our own hole in the ground from the failed "Chicago Spire." Proposals are nothing more than that.

Nikky Mohanna plans to self-finance 19J. This would seem to me that the barrier to completion is much lower. Do you agree? For reference, here's an article where "self-financing" was mentioned:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/new...e92956762.html

[snfenoc]

Maybe her high volume, low price formula will work. But why haven't we seen it before?

The self-financed angle made me hopeful as well. Unfortunately, a fellow forumer smacked me back down to earth:

Big projects (and this qualifies) are very expensive; so most developers seek financing, since the margins are just too thin without it. (I'm not gonna sink my entire net worth into a building and wait 10 years for the rent money to pile up.) It should raise concerns that a developer is not considering outside financing. Sure, it's possible Nikky Mohanna has an ace in the hole, like $50 million lying around, between her seat cushions. However, I think it's more likely she knows that she'll never qualify for capital investment; because like all Mohanna urban proposals (that I know of), 19J probably isn't a viable.

My impression of her father, Moe Mohanna, is a legacy of promises he wouldn't keep, holding on tight to rundown, sometimes empty, properties and dangling a vague idea of development in front of the city while demanding huge subsidies. That impression could be wrong and Nikky is a different person, but I remain suspicious of the Mohannas until I see them produce a finished building. They talk like the love the city, but I think they just love the city's money.

To watch some of the most knowledgeable and experienced people on this forum get essentially called "nattering nabobs of negativism" really ticks me off. These members have been following and researching Sacramento's development for decades. To dismiss their concerns and questions is truly foolish. Go walk through Sacramento. Look at the holes in the ground. Look at the empty buildings and lots. I'll bet more than half of those properties are (or were) fully-entitled. Yet they sit empty. How long they sit empty is anyone's guess. I remain cautiously optimistic...very cautiously.

I think Sacramento would do better with smaller projects, letting them thrive, then seeing if developer AND investor AND contractor interest in building bigger follows.

[innov8]

Originally Posted by Pistola916

But remember, according to Innov8, just because there are pretty renderings on an architect's website, or in this case, a restaurant moved to a different location, doesn't mean the project is any closer to being reality.

Oh good, now let us have a discussion based on things I have actually said
instead of strange assumption and comparisons that have no merit. I do not
believe I have said anything about 19J. Vanir Tower and 19J are not even
comparable, but that’s what you tried to do? I'm not even sure the Vanir
group own the property yet.

Moe Mohanna is an investor not a developer. He can call himself whatever
he wants but according to his own website his company has not built
anything since 1978 when he build homes in Rocklin. Everything else on his
website shows projects that never left the drawing board. The strangest one
is he take credit for selling the land to the Benvenutis who build the Renaissance
Tower. He sold the land, he did not build the tower.

Anyways, the Mohanna Development Co. is still controlled by Moe. His daughter
has a seat at the table but he’s still the head of the operation. Moe has over
30 years of experience of owning nine properties on K Street and others
downtown and doing next to nothing to improve them. Like snfecoc said,
sitting there empty and rundown for years. I remember seeing lots of
proposals and rendering over the years for these K Street properties which
he would tease the City Council with, but he never did a thing beyond that.
He currently owns a former bank bldg. at 10th & K since 2015. It’s been
gutted and has sit there empty for several years now.

Moe’s development Co. has not developed anything since 1978 according to
his website. He lists 7 projects but only one of them was actually built.
Strange marketing tool if you ask me, but I bet he hopes people won’t notice that.

Will 19J actually get built? Try looking at it from this perspective. Mohanna
has said and proposed a lot of stuff over the years… lots of talk and no
action. How much confidence can you put behind a guy who has not built
anything since 1978? If 19J goes up it will be as amazing as the Cubs
winning the world series… what were the odds of that last year?

Thanks snfecoc for understanding what I’m saying here. My opinions are
grounded on what is real, not some hype I have fallen for many times before.

[enigma99a]

Originally Posted by innov8

Will 19J actually get built? Try looking at it from this perspective. Mohanna
has said and proposed a lot of stuff over the years… lots of talk and no
action. How much confidence can you put behind a guy who has not built
anything since 1978? If 19J goes up it will be as amazing as the Cubs
winning the world series… what were the odds of that last year?

+1. I agree completely with this. Not saying things can't change but if you use the past to predict the future, you can see why a lot of us are concerned.

[innov8]

You have to wonder, at least I am. If the market is so great downtown for both office
and residential, why isn’t David Taylor stepping into the market? He is by far the most
successful developer downtown Sacramento has had in the last 20 years. His landmark
projects include Esquire Plaza, Sheraton Grand, 1201 K Street, U.S. Bank Tower, and
Sacramento City Hall. He knows how to get things done. He also understands that
subsidies from the City of Sacramento has made two of the above projects profitable
where under normal circumstances they would not. I believe the cities funding of some
projects and not others have manipulated the market… and not in a good way.
That extra subsidy money almost guarantees a profit when the projects done whereas
most developments are not given that money cushion. When there is no projected end
to funding, subsidies stop being a catalyst and start becoming a crutch. It appears to
me, with all these taxpayer-funded subsidies, subsidies have hidden what the true
development market is. CADA has had to offered subsidies for every
housing project they have ever done up until the site at 14th & N Street.

[Lipani]

Originally Posted by snfenoc

I think Sacramento would do better with smaller projects, letting them thrive, than seeing if developer AND investor AND contractor interest in building bigger follows.

That'd be best for Sac. Even here in San Diego much of our infill are smaller projects. Some people will complain about 6-7 floor condos being built instead of 30-40 story skyscrapers, but fail to remember how bad or empty some of those blocks were just 10 years ago. It's only recently that the East Village has been getting taller projects built.

[SacTownAndy]

Saw a tweet this morning from the Biz Journal saying that Vanir Tower was moved back to "waiting" status as opposed to "active" on City's website listing potential development.

[ozone]

Originally Posted by SacTownAndy

Saw a tweet this morning from the Biz Journal saying that Vanir Tower was moved back to "waiting" status as opposed to "active" on City's website listing potential development.

Not surprised but neither am I really disappointed. I never cared for the design. When Downtown Sacramento does start to rise again I hope we'll have better designs than we've had in the past.

[Deno]

When is Marshall hotel project going to get started? That corner needs to be cleaned up.