Canadian Premier League

[ZeDgE]

Roof is done on the main stands at spruce meadows! I'm happy as its going to be crappy and raining on the 18th.



Not my pic

https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianPL/...day_at_spruce/

[craneSpotter]

1st round Canadian Championship game at Westhills tomorrow against Cavalry....hoping they get a decent crowd (I can't go). Starts at 7:30 pm PDT... that's late!

[JHikka]

Duane Rollins is reporting that Laval and Quebec City are front-runners for new teams in 2020.

Also reporting that Steve Apostolopoulos is the money behind a potential Durham/Pickering team, potentially to be located around Church & Bailey.

[ZeDgE]

They really need to fix the camera angle at west hills. Way to low.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

They really need to fix the camera angle at west hills. Way to low.

There's nothing they can do about it. Camera position faces main stand so you're not looking at a parking lot and due to lack of space in main stand and camera can only be raised so high due to hydro lines above the camera's position.

Until the infamous hydro pole and lines are moved we're stuck with that camera position for now.

[megadude]

If there’s going to be another GTA team I’m glad it’s in the east. I’ve had this discussion in the Toronto forum about east vs west and we need more things in the east. If Sauga happens one day then great but Pickering would be nice for now.

However, given how people around here tend to shy away from lower level sport I’m not sure any of these teams including York 9 are viable. But I hope to be wrong and hope one day we can be like London with a multitude of pro teams even if the rest are in the lower division like millwall, etc.

[craneSpotter]

Only 2,294 at the Pacific FC 2-0 loss against Cavalry last night. However it was a late start @7:30pm and weather wise it started raining around 6pm and didn't let up much.

By all accounts Cavalry was the superior team.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by megadude

If there’s going to be another GTA team I’m glad it’s in the east. I’ve had this discussion in the Toronto forum about east vs west and we need more things in the east. If Sauga happens one day then great but Pickering would be nice for now.

However, given how people around here tend to shy away from lower level sport I’m not sure any of these teams including York 9 are viable. But I hope to be wrong and hope one day we can be like London with a multitude of pro teams even if the rest are in the lower division like millwall, etc.

It also takes people to get more things East. Peel Region has more than double the population of Durham. The GTA isn't as big of a sports watching town however, there are numerous teams around town that represent lower level sports. What it comes down to is the sport itself and the cost to watch. Soccer will be fine in Toronto. The pricing for the CPL however is very high.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

Only 2,294 at the Pacific FC 2-0 loss against Cavalry last night. However it was a late start @7:30pm and weather wise it started raining around 6pm and didn't let up much.

By all accounts Cavalry was the superior team.

Decent showing for a Canadian Championship game, though. We'll see how Pacific manage for the CPL match this weekend.

[mistercorporate]

Very decent attendance for a rain game. The team will have success and grow from these days! These are the funnest days usually, with the most hardcore supporters and the warmest bars/restaurants.

[WhipperSnapper]

That's not even half capacity. Shouldn't numbers be boosted from the publicity of being a new league? I have my doubts these early numbers are satisfactory. It's early. Plenty of time to get them up to where they should be. It will take more work.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

That's not even half capacity. Shouldn't numbers be boosted from the publicity of being a new league? I have my doubts these early numbers are satisfactory. It's early. Plenty of time to get them up to where they should be. It will take more work.

When does a new league ever draw big numbers right off the hop because it's new? It takes time to build up a fanbase. Remember, at one time, some NFL games looked like this:



It took decades for it to grow into what we recognize today.

The numbers we've seen so far are pretty well in line with what I'd expect for a new startup league being run on a fairly tight budget.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

When does a new league ever draw big numbers right off the hop because it's new? It takes time to build up a fanbase. Remember, at one time, some NFL games looked like this:



It took decades for it to grow into what we recognize today.

The numbers we've seen so far are pretty well in line with what I'd expect for a new startup league being run on a fairly tight budget.

The new always attracts interest whether it's a new chain store or amusement park ride. Media responds with additional coverage. Success is forecast by how quickly the novelty/boost wears off.

This isn't preWW2 or whenever the photo was taken. The world functions at a faster pace than to devote decades to building a product that could be underperforming already. The average professional player barely made a living wage in black and white photo era and pro stadiums didn't cost a billion dollars in adjusted dollars.

CWHL was fortunate to get a decade in before board members shut it down and how much of that can be attributed to hockey's status in Canada. It's just one of many leagues that has folded in the last few decades and one of very few to make it to ten years.

CPL's product has an advantage that should bring it success. What it comes down to is the value for the consumer in paying upwards of a $100 for a ticket for a second rate game in a third rate facility. Ticket sales will be used to determine the value of licensing and that's where the money is today.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

CWHL was fortunate to get a decade in before board members shut it down and how much of that can be attributed to hockey's status in Canada. It's just one of many leagues that has folded in the last few decades and one of very few to make it to ten years.

CWHL was fortunate to survive a decade in thanks to kind donations and eventually funding from China. It was a miracle it didn't fold five years ago.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

CPL's product has an advantage that should bring it success. What it comes down to is the value for the consumer in paying upwards of a $100 for a ticket for a second rate game in a third rate facility. Ticket sales will be used to determine the value of licensing and that's where the money is today.

Tickets for Pacific are nowhere near $100 - the only team charging that much for centre field main grandstand is Cavalry (which are owned by billionaires anyway). You can get CPL tickets in most markets for $20-$40. Season tickets for most are relatively cheap and offer perks like free jerseys.

Again, you're judging most of your comments on a Canadian Championship game played midweek. The other Pacific FC game played midweek also had a similar attendance and an equally awful local start time. Pacific also have another home game this Saturday so their schedule is a bit compacted. Soccer attendance, at least based on MLS/USL, is always better in the fall than in the spring.

Given the corporate and media partnerships that CPL has signed thus far they're not relying as much on gameday sales as may be assumed, and even if they are all ownership groups were told ahead of time that the first few years were going to see losses. So much of this first season is about creating something and getting it built off of the ground. As esquire alluded to, sports leagues aren't the same as shiny new restaurants or stores - they require a lot of word of mouth and a lot of buildup over long periods of time to become successful. It hasn't even been a month yet.

I suppose a year and a half/two years ago people were saying this league would never happen, so it's a bit of an improvement I guess.

[mistercorporate]

This league was designed to absorb losses for a decade, it is unprecedentedly successful for a new league. I for one am proud of it and its innate demand.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

They really need to fix the camera angle at west hills. Way to low.

Yup, hate to say it, but you'll need to have some hardcore fans to keep an audience with that. Didn't look much better than a local cable production after seeing how the inaugural Forge/York game looked.

The one soccer broadcast crew doing the Halifax game wasn't much to call home about either, and of course the ever present UK accented PBP guy. Can't we get away from that in the CPL, FFS?

Also watched our women's rugby sevens playing there and it was hard to follow, they gotta rent a crane or if that's not possible elevate that camera somehow, but I have my doubts it's structurally possible or they would have done it.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

This league was designed to absorb losses for a decade, it is unprecedentedly successful for a new league. I for one am proud of it and its innate demand.

No league can absorb losses for very long, especially a startup despite what anyone says. Rich people particularly don't like to lose money, especially their own, that's why they're rich. Don't expand, solidify what you've got and create stability. This league does not have the history of stability behind it to start losing franchises and not having it be extremely harmful.

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by elly63

Yup, hate to say it, but you'll need to have some hardcore fans to keep an audience with that. Didn't look much better than a local cable production after seeing how the inaugural Forge/York game looked.

The one soccer broadcast crew doing the Halifax game wasn't much to call home about either, and of course the ever present UK accented PBP guy. Can't we get away from that in the CPL, FFS?

Also watched our women's rugby sevens playing there and it was hard to follow, they gotta rent a crane or if that's not possible elevate that camera somehow, but I have my doubts it's structurally possible or they would have done it.

Not to be a homer but the best angle and views I have seen so far live are from Spruce Meadows.



Commentators seemed decent too for these games, the guys who did the Forge/Cavalry game in Hamilton were awful though. Good grief they were raging homers.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

No league can absorb losses for very long, especially a startup despite what anyone says. Rich people particularly don't like to lose money, especially their own, that's why they're rich. Don't expand, solidify what you've got and create stability. This league does not have the history of stability behind it to start losing franchises and not having it be extremely harmful.

Again, when joining the league originally owners were aware of losses for initial years as there would be in any startup. It's not a decade - more like 3-5 years of designed, planned for losses.

Rich people are fine with operationally losing money if the value of their asset increases over time. As long as cash flows and revenue projections make sense they'll ride along. It also helps when the owners are big supporters of the sport in and of itself - the Faths lost $6M in the last year of NASL due mostly to travel. They won't be losing nearly as much in CPL. IIRC they've said that with how NASL was structured they would have required crowds of around 9K, so smaller crowds in a less expensive league operationally makes sense from a breakeven perspective. 4K crowds in Edmonton are fine and are higher than what they had in the NASL days.

The situation with the CPL is that it's built into Canada Soccer Business, meaning that any corporate deal (VW, WestJet) or media deal (MediaPro, CBC) is built into CSB. Anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong but the owners buy into a stake of CSB when operating a team and into CPL, meaning that CPL can lose money but CSB can make a profit in the same given year. This is the same as how MLS works in the US. The CSA is also tied into CSB in this manner as well (which is how OneSoccer has broadcast rights for CMNT/WMNT/CPL simultaneously).

If the rumoured expansion fees are correct for future teams then the CPL shouldn't have much to worry about in the short term.

Originally Posted by elly63

Also watched our women's rugby sevens playing there and it was hard to follow, they gotta rent a crane or if that's not possible elevate that camera somehow, but I have my doubts it's structurally possible or they would have done it.

See:

Originally Posted by JHikka

There's nothing they can do about it. Camera position faces main stand so you're not looking at a parking lot and due to lack of space in main stand and camera can only be raised so high due to hydro lines above the camera's position.

Until the infamous hydro pole and lines are moved we're stuck with that camera position for now.

I can't remember the timeline for the hydro pole and lines being removed but it won't be this calendar year.

Originally Posted by elly63

The one soccer broadcast crew doing the Halifax game wasn't much to call home about either, and of course the ever present UK accented PBP guy. Can't we get away from that in the CPL, FFS?

The crew doing the Valour/Forge game last night didn't have UK accents.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by JHikka

CWHL was fortunate to survive a decade in thanks to kind donations and eventually funding from China. It was a miracle it didn't fold five years ago.



Tickets for Pacific are nowhere near $100 - the only team charging that much for centre field main grandstand is Cavalry (which are owned by billionaires anyway). You can get CPL tickets in most markets for $20-$40. Season tickets for most are relatively cheap and offer perks like free jerseys.

Again, you're judging most of your comments on a Canadian Championship game played midweek. The other Pacific FC game played midweek also had a similar attendance and an equally awful local start time. Pacific also have another home game this Saturday so their schedule is a bit compacted. Soccer attendance, at least based on MLS/USL, is always better in the fall than in the spring.

Given the corporate and media partnerships that CPL has signed thus far they're not relying as much on gameday sales as may be assumed, and even if they are all ownership groups were told ahead of time that the first few years were going to see losses. So much of this first season is about creating something and getting it built off of the ground. As esquire alluded to, sports leagues aren't the same as shiny new restaurants or stores - they require a lot of word of mouth and a lot of buildup over long periods of time to become successful. It hasn't even been a month yet.

I suppose a year and a half/two years ago people were saying this league would never happen, so it's a bit of an improvement I guess.

I'm not just basing it on one game. The numbers come across as less than glowing for a new league that had more publicity than any other start up league before it. Neither am I claiming this league is doomed to fail. That would be as short sighted as claiming the league is a major success after a few weeks.

The league is expected to see losses during first few years but, it is ridiculous to say there aren't limits to those losses. The corporate sponsorship have expectations as well. They aren't going to sit back if the numbers are continually worst than planned.

Of course I used the Cavalry ticket prices for dramatic effect. Average pricing is high to very high for the experience offered.

I disagree with esquire and his example from long established leagues. It's a different marketplace with costs being much higher. I don't think anyone thinks of overnight success but, no one is going to wait decades to turnaround a league with popularity below expectation and declining team values.

We are all just speculating. Some see it as a major success so far. Others not so much. It's your prerogative to respectfully disagree or dismiss people as nut jobs wanting it to fail since it was first proposed.