General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Tito714

I was listening to the local sports radio yesterday afternoon, and it seems like I caught the last half of the intreview with one of the Phoenix Suns executives. It seems like there is some talk about the Suns needing a new arena within the next 7 years. Nothing concrete as of yet, but wow that would suck if the Suns moved out of downtown.

What station did you hear this on? I know US Airways center is one of the oldest, but it also very well kept up and constantly remodeled.

I really doubt they would move out of downtown. Sarver tried to develop a hotel on the old Suns Athletic Club / China Town building, but activists shut it down. Also I'm sure he loves having his bank HQ right next door.

You do bring up an interesting thought though, there is no way the city lets them move very far if at all. If this were to happen, I'd thing they would either demo/remodel the current arena, while playing at Gila River Arena for two years OR they'd have to find land in the immediate vicinity of the Legends Entertainment district....

WHAT IF they build a new area on surface parking lot adjacent, next to Cityscape, then redeveloped the current arena site into another Cityscape type project (but better)?

I doubt this happens, but interesting point of discussion you bring up.

[Tito714]

98.7 Arizona Sports. It was interesting because they were talking about how well maintained the stadium is aesthetically speaking, but that the infrustructure is outdated. I was at the game last night and thought to my self how nice it would be if the concourses were a little wider.

I know what you mean I would hope it would remain in downtown, and not relocated to some other part of Phoenix, for example desert ridge area, that would be terrible.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Tito714

98.7 Arizona Sports. It was interesting because they were talking about how well maintained the stadium is aesthetically speaking, but that the infrustructure is outdated. I was at the game last night and thought to my self how nice it would be if the concourses were a little wider.

I know what you mean I would hope it would remain in downtown, and not relocated to some other part of Phoenix, for example desert ridge area, that would be terrible.

Thanks, I must have missed that segment. I know it's no longer a world class venue. Still very nice, but you're right, it's probably not ideal for concerts and even basketball any more. The concourse is narrow with low ceilings in places and can feel claustrophobic.

What a great opportunity that would present for the city and downtown core, assuming that voters approve funding. I'm sure Sarver would incorporate a hotel into the plans along with retail and maybe offices. It could connect more closely with Cityscape and expand upon that activity.

After looking at Google earth, there is no way an arena can really go anywhere other than where it currently is. I think the team would have to play in Glendale for two seasons, unless they wanted to put it in the Roosevelt area on some group of those empty lots to give life to the northern downtown area.

[Jackdavis4]

If this happened along with Marriot Luhrs, Barrister new buildings, ballpark apartments and things like bitter and twisted. The south side of downtown could become big time!

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

What station did you hear this on? I know US Airways center is one of the oldest, but it also very well kept up and constantly remodeled.

I really doubt they would move out of downtown. Sarver tried to develop a hotel on the old Suns Athletic Club / China Town building, but activists shut it down. Also I'm sure he loves having his bank HQ right next door.

You do bring up an interesting thought though, there is no way the city lets them move very far if at all. If this were to happen, I'd thing they would either demo/remodel the current arena, while playing at Gila River Arena for two years OR they'd have to find land in the immediate vicinity of the Legends Entertainment district....

WHAT IF they build a new area on surface parking lot adjacent, next to Cityscape, then redeveloped the current arena site into another Cityscape type project (but better)?

I doubt this happens, but interesting point of discussion you bring up.

Yea, I can't imagine the Suns moving out of downtown with all the investments Sarver has made. Legends Entertainment District is essentially his brainchild and I'm sure he receives a pretty penny for the media sold through that group.

With Jackson Street being all but DOA, I wouldn't want to see the stadium move locations. A CityScape-type project makes perfect sense for the empty lot between Colliers and CityScape and would connect Barrister Place, CityScape, Colliers, and the nightlife strip along Washington. I'd hate to see that continuity destroyed by an arena that, let's face it, will not be designed to optimal urban standards and would leave multiple blank faces.

If rebuilt, I'd like to see a similar footprint as now, with ground level retail on the garage, a Suns-themed club/bar moved into the Sun Merc, and a real effort to get a high-end hotel developed where the W was slated. I'd also like the retail annex to be re-thought, so that the team shop was located inside and the Club Toyota/BlueMoon moved to a second story, so that true 24/7 retail could utilize the ground level spaces.

For a dream scenario, how's this plan look for the area?

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Yea, I can't imagine the Suns moving out of downtown with all the investments Sarver has made. Legends Entertainment District is essentially his brainchild and I'm sure he receives a pretty penny for the media sold through that group.

With Jackson Street being all but DOA, I wouldn't want to see the stadium move locations. A CityScape-type project makes perfect sense for the empty lot between Colliers and CityScape and would connect Barrister Place, CityScape, Colliers, and the nightlife strip along Washington. I'd hate to see that continuity destroyed by an arena that, let's face it, will not be designed to optimal urban standards and would leave multiple blank faces.

If rebuilt, I'd like to see a similar footprint as now, with ground level retail on the garage, a Suns-themed club/bar moved into the Sun Merc, and a real effort to get a high-end hotel developed where the W was slated. I'd also like the retail annex to be re-thought, so that the team shop was located inside and the Club Toyota/BlueMoon moved to a second story, so that true 24/7 retail could utilize the ground level spaces.

For a dream scenario, how's this plan look for the area?

I think it looks awesome! Especially like your idea for a Suns bar in the Sun Merc building! The city could probably fund the arena by leasing the land (minus arena) like with the Central Station project.

I think there are a few essentially components 1) State of the art arena 2) High End hotel 3) High end condos 4) Sun Merc building repurpose 5) retail restauants with hotel/condos on the empty lot across street to connect with CityScape. If we got all 4 of those things I think it would be a huge win!

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I think it looks awesome! Especially like your idea for a Suns bar in the Sun Merc building! The city could probably fund the arena by leasing the land (minus arena) like with the Central Station project.

I think there are a few essentially components 1) State of the art arena 2) High End hotel 3) High end condos 4) Sun Merc building repurpose 5) retail restauants with hotel/condos on the empty lot across street to connect with CityScape. If we got all 4 of those things I think it would be a huge win!

Unfortunately, I don't think it would be as simple as leasing the land around the arena; for instance, I think CityScape may now own the parking structure adjacent to the arena (my memory is fuzzy, but the whole JSED debacle was extremely complicated).

As for the 4 things you listed, I don't think high end hotels or condos are necessarily needed; yes, the W is more high-end, but something in the range of an AC Marriott or Kimpton would be fine... heck, even an Aloft. I think the important aspect is that the hotel needs to have a 'hip' kind of vibe to it with its own bar/lounge attached to attract the right demos. As for condos, I think we saw with Summit/44 Monroe that they are a hard sell... I think market apartment rentals would accomplish the same goal of creating a base of residents that can actively participate in the activities of the area and purchase at the retail/restaurant offerings. If you go too high end, I think you might overshoot overshoot and end up with investors and 2nd-home buyers who don't add much life to the streets.

Just my additional .02. Agreed on everything else - that Colliers hotel pad, and the Colliers/CityScape lot really need to be developed. At least a good portion of the Barrister lot is slated for work at last.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

What a great opportunity that would present for the city and downtown core, assuming that voters approve funding. I'm sure Sarver would incorporate a hotel into the plans along with retail and maybe offices. It could connect more closely with Cityscape and expand upon that activity.

I don't think that is even remotely possible.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

I don't think that is even remotely possible.

Don't underestimate the support for the Suns in this city.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I really doubt they would move out of downtown. Sarver tried to develop a hotel on the old Suns Athletic Club / China Town building, but activists shut it down. Also I'm sure he loves having his bank HQ right next door..

This is an urban myth. The W Hotel didn't pencil out, so Sarver used the opposition of the Chinese-American community to disguise that fact and pull the plug. The only way to make the project work was with condos filling it out. Sarver was calling the sales' office at 44 Monroe on a weekly basis at that point gauging the interest level in downtown condos. It had become obvious that despite a strong start, the numbers were dropping. If the numbers were strong, there was no way a ragtag bunch of "activists" would have derailed his project. This is Phoenix, fer crissakes.

[dtnphx]

Originally Posted by soleri

This is an urban myth. The W Hotel didn't pencil out, so Sarver used the opposition of the Chinese-American community to disguise that fact and pull the plug. The only way to make the project work was with condos filling it out. Sarver was calling the sales' office at 44 Monroe on a weekly basis at that point gauging the interest level in downtown condos. It had become obvious that despite a strong start, the numbers were dropping. If the numbers were strong, there was no way a ragtag bunch of "activists" would have derailed his project. This is Phoenix, fer crissakes.

This.

[combusean]

^ That and the project was approved by the city council anyways.

[pbenjamin]

Saw this this afternoon.

[Jjs5056]

Podcast on the fate of the warehouse district: http://downtowndevil.com/2014/10/30/...-preservation/

For most that have a good idea of what's going on down there, there isn't much in the way of news. Focus was on the difficulties of HP (Prop 207, adding things like fire escapes which up occupancy but degrade the historic facade), the current demolitions going on like at Luhrs, and a few 'feel good' stories re: Ice House, Levine Machine and The Pressroom.

I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with Michael Levine in his belief that "nobody should be living in the warehouse district." Granted, the ship has sailed with regards to true, converted lofts (though both Chambers warehouses and the warehouse on 1st St/Jackson could be repurposed), but the district needs residential desperately for many reasons:
1) It's one of the few areas where land and building stock is cheap enough to provide affordable housing along a future transit line
2) It's directly connected to downtown; with the gutting of Evans Churchill, and instability of the Capitol and Garfield neighborhoods, downtown needs to be surrounded by as many transit-accessible, dense neighborhoods as possible
3) Residents are what will create a 24/7 atmosphere in the district, which should be the end goal of any central city district - it's that which causes the convenience and vibrancy that attracts people to the area. Residents need food, neighborhood retail and services, etc. and are the stakeholders of the area who will demand for things like streetscaping projects, bike lanes, safer roads, and so on.
4) Residents will make for a safer district. A warehouse district that closes up shop at 5pm for the most part will never attract business for the 'nightlife' scene that has already sparked up. Residents create demand for the businesses that will be open between those 5pm-10pm hours and put people and lights on the street.
5) Residents will create opportunity and services for the residents of the Parks neighborhoods.

I think that the priorities of the district should be:
1) Identifying and promoting specific purposes for existing structures; it's a shame to see Jackson's on 3rd being converted from restaurant to medical office usage, and for Gerardo's and El Fresno to be used as leasing offices and a fitness center for a private apartment complex. There are still warehouses out there that could add up to a "something" if done right, but they're slipping away. The old Sporting House warehouse needs to be a brewery again, the warehouse on 1st St/Jackson needs to house affordable lofts, etc. Turning every available asset into a 9-5 business will be the death of the district.
2) RFPing any city-owned land with these goals in mind for the lots.
3) Streetscaping and wayfinding to make the area safer and the few destinations available easy to find. Jackson is well done; that just needs a few kiosks here and there. But, Buchanan needs consistent sidewalks, lighting and shade, as do 1st St and 3rd St.
4) Attracting startup companies to properties and buildings south of Buchanan and/or west of 3rd Ave.

[MegaBass]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Yea, I can't imagine the Suns moving out of downtown with all the investments Sarver has made. Legends Entertainment District is essentially his brainchild and I'm sure he receives a pretty penny for the media sold through that group.

With Jackson Street being all but DOA, I wouldn't want to see the stadium move locations. A CityScape-type project makes perfect sense for the empty lot between Colliers and CityScape and would connect Barrister Place, CityScape, Colliers, and the nightlife strip along Washington. I'd hate to see that continuity destroyed by an arena that, let's face it, will not be designed to optimal urban standards and would leave multiple blank faces.

If rebuilt, I'd like to see a similar footprint as now, with ground level retail on the garage, a Suns-themed club/bar moved into the Sun Merc, and a real effort to get a high-end hotel developed where the W was slated. I'd also like the retail annex to be re-thought, so that the team shop was located inside and the Club Toyota/BlueMoon moved to a second story, so that true 24/7 retail could utilize the ground level spaces.

For a dream scenario, how's this plan look for the area?

What about the Sun practice facility at Sun Merch? I'd like to at least see some recognition ala plaque that the site used to be where China Alley (Phoenix's second Chinatown) was.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by MegaBass

What about the Sun practice facility at Sun Merch? I'd like to at least see some recognition ala plaque that the site used to be where China Alley (Phoenix's second Chinatown) was.

Is that it's current use or what you'd like to see it used as? I wasn't aware it was being used at all; if so, a public entity would be more appealing and do much more for the vibrancy of the small warehouse district than a practice facility.

And, I agree; I think either a modern addition for a museum of some sort, or a small memorial park to the north of Sun Merc is appropriate.

[MegaBass]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Is that it's current use or what you'd like to see it used as? I wasn't aware it was being used at all; if so, a public entity would be more appealing and do much more for the vibrancy of the small warehouse district than a practice facility.

And, I agree; I think either a modern addition for a museum of some sort, or a small memorial park to the north of Sun Merc is appropriate.

Yeah that's what it is currently used for and I agree that it would be better off as a public entity. If they do go the route of gutting out the arena, I would imagine Sarver and the front office would look at having a larger practice facility for the Suns and Mercury (maybe Rattlers since I think they practice off site).

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by MegaBass

Yeah that's what it is currently used for and I agree that it would be better off as a public entity. If they do go the route of gutting out the arena, I would imagine Sarver and the front office would look at having a larger practice facility for the Suns and Mercury (maybe Rattlers since I think they practice off site).

What is the league standard for practice sites, if you happen to know? Are they always adjacent to the main arena? Could something like that be incorporated into a basement?

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

What is the league standard for practice sites, if you happen to know? Are they always adjacent to the main arena? Could something like that be incorporated into a basement?

99.9% sure that is not accurate. First of all that building is barely big enough (or not anywhere near) to fit a single court. I also do not believe the ceilings are high enough. The Suns and Mercury practices are held inside the arena in courts located beneath the stands.

It did used to house what they called the Phoenix Suns Athletic Club, which I believe was more of a private gym, but I do not think that is still the case.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

99.9% sure that is not accurate. First of all that building is barely big enough (or not anywhere near) to fit a single court. I also do not believe the ceilings are high enough. The Suns and Mercury practices are held inside the arena in courts located beneath the stands.

It did used to house what they called the Phoenix Suns Athletic Club, which I believe was more of a private gym, but I do not think that is still the case.

Yes, the Athletic Club was pre-W Hotel days; Google Maps makes it look like there may be some kind of physiotherapy/PT services housed in there?

And, thanks - it does seem to make much more sense to house practice facilities in the arena itself.