Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Nordheimer_87

Here's the link to the article I published on Spacing Atlantic with your letter:
http://spacingatlantic.ca/2009/11/25...um-in-halifax/

Thank you Nordheimer for the article on Spacing Atlantic. It looks great!

There is also a section at the bottom of this article for comments. I would recommend that skyscraperpage forum members post their comments. The more publicity the better. The link is above and I have re-posted it below:

http://spacingatlantic.ca/2009/11/25...um-in-halifax/

Maybe somebody could post the petition page link in the comments section.

[isaidso]

^^ Good work fenwick16

Originally Posted by fenwick16

ok. I will post it later tonight once it is done. Someone on this forum convinced me that the most important thing was having the stadium in a central area with very good public transit. Being in that location, do you think that it will be less successful since most people will need cars to get there?

I'm a big advocate of centralizing key municipal infrastructure and assets along important transportation nodes, but every city faces a unique set of characteristics. All site locations warrant analysis even if they seem less favourable on the surface.

It's only by looking at varied sites that we can determine what attributes are deemed most important. It may also come to pass that no central location is feasible upon which more outlying areas need to be considered.

This dispersal of the metropolitan population in an awkward geographic footprint changes things quite a bit. Commuting patterns for the whole metro need to be analyzed as does analysis of where people will be traveling from. Peninsula Halifax is home to only a third of the metropolitan population. It's not a given that Halifax peninsula makes the most sense.

If it's not on Peninsula Halifax, it does need to be on the Circumferential so easy access is possible from Bedford, Sackville, Dartmouth, etc. This site satisfies that demand.

Transit in Halifax is atrocious. There is no subway system, so people will be bussing regardless of where a stadium is put. We all know what morning commute onto the peninsula is like. Why would we want to reproduce that for 30,000 fans every time a game is on?

In the end, I'd prefer a peninsula Halifax site, even an on campus site. Halifax's traffic bottleneck and transit issues would need to be solved first however. Such discussion is beyond the scope of this thread, but suffice it to say, periphery locations need to be looked at.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Takeo

Bear in mind that any site would probably have to be at least 200 meters square to accommodate a stadium of any size to allow for stands and parking... etc. The field alone is what... 160 feet x 360 feet? (approx. 50m x 110m). Few spots on the Peninsula fit that bill. I like the North End (near Superstore / Willow DND area). Makes sense. Great traffic connections to the MacKay and Bi-High. And Young Street is already a retail area so I some nicer bars and restaurants could spring up as a result.

I agree with this location as the best location besides the Commons skate-park area which appears to be a no-starter. Hopefully this area on the northern peninsula will become available. It is also possible that the stadium could be built with overhanging tiers to reduce the width so it would fit next to the Supermarket better. I don't think that it needs to be 200 meters wide (probably 150 meters wide would be sufficient). I don't think that it needs its own parking since there is parking on the Forum lands and other surrounding areas. Also, it is within 20-30 minutes walk of the Scotia Square and Purdy's Wharf parking.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Is this the correct area? If it is then there is lots of space.

That's awesome. Hallelujah! I thought it would fit. A nice buffer between the stadium and residential plus there's a ton of room for tailgating too! It's a really beautiful part of town with the forest right there. Game day could be a terrific experience if it's designed right. Thank you so much.

GO TIGERS!

[isaidso]

The Wanderer's Grounds are off limits and a tight fit, right?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ Good work fenwick16



I'm a big advocate of centralizing key municipal infrastructure and assets along important transportation nodes, but every city faces a unique set of characteristics. All site locations warrant analysis even if they seem less favourable on the surface.

It's only by looking at varied sites that we can determine what attributes are deemed most important. It may also come to pass that no central location is feasible upon which more outlying areas need to be considered.

This dispersal of the metropolitan population in an awkward geographic footprint changes things quite a bit. Commuting patterns for the whole metro need to be analyzed as does analysis of where people will be traveling from. Peninsula Halifax is home to only a third of the metropolitan population. It's not a given that Halifax peninsula makes the most sense.

If it's not on Peninsula Halifax, it does need to be on the Circumferential so easy access is possible from Bedford, Sackville, Dartmouth, etc. This site satisfies that demand.

Transit in Halifax is atrocious. There is no subway system, so people will be bussing regardless of where a stadium is put. We all know what morning commute onto the peninsula is like. Why would we want to reproduce that for 30,000 fans every time a game is on?

In the end, I'd prefer a peninsula Halifax site, even an on campus site. Halifax's traffic bottleneck issues would need to be solved first however. Such discussion is beyond the scope of this thread, but suffice it to say, periphery locations need to be looked at.

I agree with your point that if the stadium is off the peninsula then it needs good highway access. However, having been to a few Blue Jay games and a Maple Leaf games, very seldom do sporting events coincide with rush hour traffic. So traffic bottlenecks have never been a problem when going to sporting events in downtown Toronto.

Also, it is interesting to note that the Skydome doesn't have a large parking garage; much of the parking is handled by off-site lots which during the evenings and weekends have available space.

I wouldn't consider the Halifax Transit system to be that bad. Even though it is by bus it has several routes covering the metro area. Considering the layout of the Halifax area and the urban sprawl it is quite efficient in my opinion.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The Wanderer's Grounds are off limits and a tight fit, right?

I was looking at this previously (I will see how it fits and post it later). If I had my way, I would want it to be where the skate-park currently is. What a fantastic location for a sunken bowl. It would hardly even be noticeable from the street. But just image looking from the citadel hill down on a stadium like the new Blue Bombers proposed stadium. It would become a new Halifax landmark. Various parades through downtown Halifax could terminate (or begin) in the stadium (but how does a sunken stadium accommodate vehicles?)

[isaidso]

Toronto doesn't experience bottlenecks at Skydome and Maple Leaf Gardens because it has a subway system capable of handling tens of thousands of people an hour. Not only does Halifax not have this capability, Halifax is a peninsula while downtown Toronto is not. The bottlenecks are at at entry points to Halifax peninsula.

London and Paris have spoiled me when it comes to public transportation, so I don't think I'm going to see eye to eye with many Haligonians regarding the efficiency, frequency, or convenience of Halifax transit. (A good transit system should get you from Clayton Park to Scotia Square in about 7 or 8 minutes.) I don't even think Toronto's is very good. That's another discussion though.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I was looking at this previously (I will see how it fits and post it later). If I had my way, I would want it to be where the skate-park currently is. What a fantastic location for a sunken bowl. It would hardly even be noticeable from the street. But just image looking from the citadel hill down on a stadium like the new Blue Bombers proposed stadium. It would become a new Halifax landmark. Various parades through downtown Halifax could terminate (or begin) in the stadium (but how does a sunken stadium accommodate vehicles?)

I like it too. I also like the Robie Street location half way between Dal and SMU, but that has little chance of happening. The side of the hill further towards SMU would look great. Seems like I'm keeping you busy.


Courtesy of Finiteman

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The Wanderer's Grounds are off limits and a tight fit, right?

It actually fits quite well. The stadium would have to be designed to fit the area but this has been done numerous times in numerous places throughout North America (I didn't bother to cut out a section of stands). A couple of buildings would have to go.

Here it is:

[isaidso]

^^ WOW! I didn't think it would fit. Maybe if it was parallel to Bell Road, it would work better. Even with the way you have it, you could certainly wrap the stands around to the south and create a horseshoe.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Someone on this forum convinced me that the most important thing was having the stadium in a central area with very good public transit.

I believe that person was myself. Check page #5.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I like it too. I also like the Robie Street location half way between Dal and SMU, but that has little chance of happening. The side of the hill further towards SMU would look great. Seems like I'm keeping you busy.


Courtesy of Finiteman

There is more space here than I thought. I am not sure of the surrounding buildings. However, there is probably a better chance of getting it built on the Commons than in the South End.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ WOW! I didn't think it would fit. Maybe if it was parallel to Bell Road, it would work better. Even with the way you have it, you could certainly wrap the stands around to the south and create a horseshoe.



I believe that person was myself. Check page #5.

It might have been you. At the time I was thinking of the old quarry pit at the Dartmouth Crossings to use as a sunken bowl.

I found it. This is what changed my mind. I think you made a very good point.

isaidso isaidso is online now
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Lots of communities across north America have very large football stadia located in their cores with little in the way of parking close by. Urban planners argue that you do put stadia on transit corridors, but they don't have to be roads. As long as transit compensates, it is a far more palatable proposition than building in outlying areas that depend on the automobile.

Lansdowne in Ottawa is just such an example. They rejected Kanata because it's in the middle of nowhere and is really only accessible by car. It causes sprawl.

University of Alabama's football stadium is right in the heart of Tuscaloosa, population 206,765 and their stadium holds 92,012 people. There is some parking, but nowhere close to what this stadium holds. People bus in, walk, cab, etc. There are a myriad other examples across the continent. The idea that one needs big, high capacity roads is a 1960s mentality that causes sprawl. Progressive urban planning is about concentrated nodes, density, and efficiency. People need to be encouraged to congregate in the core, not sucked out to the outlying areas.

Besides, we're not proposing anything close to this size stadia. Just a puny one that will probably never grow past 30,000 in size.

This is smack in the middle of Tuscaloosa

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Nordheimer_87

Here's the link to the article I published on Spacing Atlantic with your letter:
http://spacingatlantic.ca/2009/11/25...um-in-halifax/

I really want to salute Jake Schabas at spacingatlantic. Not only did he do an article on the stadium he also provided a link to this thread and a link to the online petition (I missed the link the first time I read it).

[Dmajackson]

^That petition must have been up for ages by now ... it says I've signed it when I don't even remember doing it ... oh well apparently I'm number 120 ...

[fenwick16]

Just for interest and to make sure that my scaling method isn't off, I tried the McMahon stadium on the current SMU football stadium lands. It matched quite well based on the football size for both being the same. Because of all the buildings surrounding the SMU football field, it will not fit (no surprise).

Here it is:

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There is more space here than I thought. I am not sure of the surrounding buildings. However, there is probably a better chance of getting it built on the Commons than in the South End.

You're right about that, but it certainly would be ideal as a joint SMU - Dalhousie stadium. Add a CFL team to the mix and you'd be talking a minimum of 17 big football games/year. That's heavy usage for a football stadium. Some weekends you might have 3 football games played there.

[Takeo]

Anywhere in the South End is inappropriate. I used to live in the South End (not ashamed to admit it) and it takes 15 minutes to get from the South End to any kind of highway / bridge / etc when the traffic is ZERO. Imagine the tie ups when there are 30,000 people trying to get home all at once.

Also... I believe someone mentioned Scotia Square parking being about a 20-30 min. walk from the North End Young Street location idea (near SuperStore). That's actually a 40 minute walk. I live in the Hydrostone and it takes a good 40 minutes to walk downtown. 35 if you REALLY boot it and catch some lights. And bring up at the far end of Young would make the walk even longer. In any case... there is so much land around this Northwest location that I don't think parking would be an issue.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I really want to salute Jake Schabas at spacingatlantic. Not only did he do an article on the stadium he also provided a link to this thread and a link to the online petition (I missed the link the first time I read it).

It was an excellent article. Do we want to send the letter to the Herald?

[q12]

I posted this in the CFL Maritimes thread.

Monctons Track & Field stadiums bleachers are really far away from the field in order to accommodate the track.




This is why when Halifax builds its stadium it needs to build a nice tight Football stadium without the track.



I think that involving the university's (SMU & DAL) is good, however we should not worry about proximity to their location too much. SMU can keep its track and field and do some minor upgrades to Huskies stadium (Huskies can still practice at Huskies Stadium). The new Halifax Stadium would be used for any football games played by the universities, the CFL and other events like concerts.

We need to pick 2 or 3 locations that we think are best suited and also likely available for the city to purchase without much opposition. This way when someone in this city starts to clue into the fact that the public want a stadium we can suggest these locations to help things along.