Ottawa intercity bus terminal relocation

[waterloowarrior]

Run buses from Via station: Mayor
By JON WILLING, OTTAWA SUN
Last Updated: March 18, 2010 8:35pm
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa.../13283171.html

Mayor Larry O’Brien is greasing the wheels to create a transportation nucleus at the Via Rail station off Riverside Dr.

O’Brien is trying to get Via onboard with the idea, which would have the train station be a one-stop shop for Greyhound bus, Via train and city transit services in the national capital.

“It’s good to have a transportation hub,” O’Brien said Thursday after sending a letter to Via president Marc Laliberte pitching the idea.

The mayor had discussed the possibility with former Via president Paul Cote, who retired at the end of 2009.

Now, O’Brien is asking Laliberte to enter the discussion with an open mind.

Greyhound has already indicated it would be interested in moving its operations from the current bus terminal on Catherine St. to the Via station on Tremblay Rd., O’Brien said.

In fact, O’Brien said the move could happen within a matter of months if Via accepted the proposal.

The setup would have added benefits since bus rapid transit and the future light-rail system would be within steps of the station.

O’Brien said a full service transit station could be the perfect base for trains, buses and taxis.

Ongoing development in the area of the train yards is creating a destination point in Ottawa, with shopping and the baseball stadium nearby.

And if Greyhound does move, it could spur development of the existing bus station downtown, the mayor said.

jon.willing@sunmedia.ca



some pros
-better access to various modes of transportation
-better bus service (transitway station, future metro station)
-existing station could be redeveloped

cons
-isolated, can't really walk anywhere (for now)
-"destination point" may take a while to happen
-distance from core: if we are going to put all the effort into moving it, is there a spot closer to the core? one of the great things about Toronto's bus station is that you get off and within a short distance you have Dundas Square, hotels, Eaton Centre, etc.

[adam-machiavelli]

I think the station should be relocated but that it should be directly connected to the Nicholas mini-freeway. One possibility is moving it to Laurier station when the downtown tunnel opens.

[IntoTheCore]

My first thought when I read that article last night was, "Holy cow. Did our mayor have a decent idea?"

Another possible pro: getting the bus station off the current site would open it up for another condo development. Would the neighbourhood complain about a new building's height after years of bus noise and exhaust?

On the other hand, I don't see any room on the train station site for buses not in use -- unless they take over one of the parking lots or the lawn in front of the station. I'm guessing Greyhound wouldn't have expressed any interest if they hadn't already considered this.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by IntoTheCore

My first thought when I read that article last night was, "Holy cow. Did our mayor have a decent idea?"

Another possible pro: getting the bus station off the current site would open it up for another condo development. Would the neighbourhood complain about a new building's height after years of bus noise and exhaust?

And you could do a pretty decent project there. Ease of access to the 417 might be appealing. Combine it with the Beaver Barracks site and that area along caroline gets an immediate face lift

Originally Posted by IntoTheCore

On the other hand, I don't see any room on the train station site for buses not in use -- unless they take over one of the parking lots or the lawn in front of the station. I'm guessing Greyhound wouldn't have expressed any interest if they hadn't already considered this.

If they used this site, and had to build an expansion they should do it where the parking lot is and include underground short/long term parking underneath.

[eternallyme]

I'd just abandon that site, build tracks back to Union Station and get everything back downtown. That would be especially advantageous for commuter rail service, but having VIA trains run right to the core would also increase ridership there too. The train yards development sure turned out to be a huge waste of land and the existing station has far less redevelopment potential.

If the LRT proposal is not revised, then the best place to reconnect to downtown would be at the Hurdman curve (convert into a wye), with tracks crossing the Rideau River and the remaining sections all underground. The tunnel would have to be designed to clear the underground LRT AND also clear any future truck route to Gatineau. Buses should be moved to a possible bus terminal (shared with OC Transpo and STO for downtown-terminating routes) on the northeast corner of the Rideau Centre, which is currently a parking lot about 400m away. The Rideau Centre could easily expand over the bus terminal, and also encompass the abandoned (heritage?) building at Rideau and Nicholas. That area would become a huge transportation hub.

The tunnel would be about 3.2 km in length, with 2 tracks initially then widening to at least 6-8 tracks into the station (2-3 tracks for VIA and 4-5 tracks for commuter trains). It would run beneath Major's Hill Park where storage tracks could be added. In the future, if a Gatineau extension is desired, the Alexandra Bridge could be re-used by returning the tracks to the surface after clearing Major's Hill Park.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I'd just abandon that site, build tracks back to Union Station and get everything back downtown. That would be especially advantageous for commuter rail service, but having VIA trains run right to the core would also increase ridership there too. The train yards development sure turned out to be a huge waste of land and the existing station has far less redevelopment potential.

If the LRT proposal is not revised, then the best place to reconnect to downtown would be at the Hurdman curve (convert into a wye), with tracks crossing the Rideau River and the remaining sections all underground. The tunnel would have to be designed to clear the underground LRT AND also clear any future truck route to Gatineau. Buses should be moved to a possible bus terminal (shared with OC Transpo and STO for downtown-terminating routes) on the northeast corner of the Rideau Centre, which is currently a parking lot about 400m away. The Rideau Centre could easily expand over the bus terminal, and also encompass the abandoned (heritage?) building at Rideau and Nicholas. That area would become a huge transportation hub.

The tunnel would be about 3.2 km in length, with 2 tracks initially then widening to at least 6-8 tracks into the station (2-3 tracks for VIA and 4-5 tracks for commuter trains). It would run beneath Major's Hill Park where storage tracks could be added. In the future, if a Gatineau extension is desired, the Alexandra Bridge could be re-used by returning the tracks to the surface after clearing Major's Hill Park.

There are lots of complications to this but I think we all know that this would be the best end result. We need to dream bigger in this city and demand the kind of major funds other large cities get out of provincial and federal governments.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by gjhall

There are lots of complications to this but I think we all know that this would be the best end result. We need to dream bigger in this city and demand the kind of major funds other large cities get out of provincial and federal governments.

It would likely cost a lot of money, but the bus parts wouldn't be too expensive as the land is already there - it is currently a parking lot! It would provide a convenient place for layovers for all buses - intercity, some STO (mainly off-peak) and all OC Transpo - that terminate downtown. I think about 20-25 buses could fit on the site at once, in addition to the bus stops that would be necessary.

The abandoned building could have its bus facilities on the lower level (with the upper levels being part of an expanded Rideau Centre). Greyhound buses (due to the necessity of luggage facilities) would use the eastern part of the site, and OC Transpo, STO and other municipal/commuter bus layovers would use the western part. Above it all could be the Rideau Centre (at their expense but they would retain aerial rights). Bus stops would be located at the Besserer Street entrance and on Rideau Street.

[AuxTown]

Pros & Cons of Greyhound Terminal Move
Daniel Proussalidis with Stephanie Kinsella
Friday, March 19, 2010

Some city councillors are backing Ottawa Mayor Larry O'Brien's call for the downtown Greyhound bus terminal to move to the main VIA Rail train station in the next few months.

But others say the city's transit upgrades should come first.

Diane Holmes says a transportation hub on Tremblay Rd. for buses and trains would only work when the light rail route is completed.

That is a project that doesn't have all of its funding secured yet.

"There is poor public transit connection to that train station at the moment," says Holmes.

But Rainer Bloess sees the move as an upgrade from the current Greyhound terminal on Catherine St.

"It makes so much sense. There's already one of our main east-west cycling paths [that] goes right through there," says Bloess.

O'Brien says he hopes the request made to VIA Rail this week will get approval within months.

He adds that he's been working behind the scenes on the plan for months and already has Greyhound support.

Diane Holmes is retarded. I guess, by poor transit connections, she means 24-hour coverage with less than 5 minute frequencies at peak times.

It would be nice to have our bus terminal right downtown, but I just don't think there's enough room for something of this scale around Union or the Rideau Centre. This would also be very expensive and would bring more traffic to an area that I would like to see become more and more pedestrian friendly. The train station receives 24-hour a day bus service from the 95 and it's less than a 10 minute trip from downtown. Catherine Street is not exactly the perfect central location as it's not really close to any tourist areas, is a little bit off from the most populated areas, and borders a pretty grungy part of town. I'd be interested to hear what they propose building in terms of structure at the terminal.

[jcollins]

Ya she's definitely way off on this one. Sure, it'll be fantastic when LRT is serving this location, but it sure works now too.

As much as I'd like to see a downtown location, this is the next best thing, and potentially better. The main thing is as long as it's on a main transit line, then it's a good thing. Much better than it is now. As much as a downtown location is nice, if transit can get you downtown (or elsewhere) quickly then the location can work.

[Dado]

Move DND out of its current digs and knock down those butt-ugly towers.

The lack of space problem for a downtown rail & intercity bus terminal is then solved.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by gjhall

There are lots of complications to this but I think we all know that this would be the best end result. We need to dream bigger in this city and demand the kind of major funds other large cities get out of provincial and federal governments.

Yes, but the prerequisite to that would be for Ottawa to be part of a province, and buggered if I can figure out which province Ottawa is part of.

[eemy]

I also strongly support this as the transit access to the other terminal was grossly inadequate.

There is a common sentiment that the existing train station should be abandoned and the old Union Station re-used. I think this would be a huge mistake. I remain optimistic that the old Union Station will find another use; however, if the existing train station is abandoned, it almost certainly would be demolished, which would be a shame, as it is actually a very fine building in its own right and a good example of architecture from its era. Although it is far more isolated, it is well connected being on the Transitway. Personally, these sentiments seem to be a somewhat naive sentimentality - there aren't very many other reasons to return train service to Union Stn that would justify the expense.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I also strongly support this as the transit access to the other terminal was grossly inadequate.

There is a common sentiment that the existing train station should be abandoned and the old Union Station re-used. I think this would be a huge mistake. I remain optimistic that the old Union Station will find another use; however, if the existing train station is abandoned, it almost certainly would be demolished, which would be a shame, as it is actually a very fine building in its own right and a good example of architecture from its era. Although it is far more isolated, it is well connected being on the Transitway. Personally, these sentiments seem to be a somewhat naive sentimentality - there aren't very many other reasons to return train service to Union Stn that would justify the expense.

Establishing a viable commuter rail system is a pretty good reason. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any commuter system in North America where the trains stop 3km from downtown and everyone has to hop on a bus to get where they are going.

[blackjagger]

Originally Posted by phil235

Establishing a viable commuter rail system is a pretty good reason. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any commuter system in North America where the trains stop 3km from downtown and everyone has to hop on a bus to get where they are going.

Well a bus hopefully for only a short period of time. I would say that most commuter systems in North America connect with other forms of mass transit to get you where you want to go. Penn/Grand Central/Union/Gare Centrale, most commuters still have to hop on a subway to get where they want to go, so 3 kms or acouple of blocks would not be that different if you are making a transfer anyways.

Cheers,
Josh

[Radster]

I think the pros outweight the cons here, as this would be a huge improvement from the status quo. Yes in a perfect world the train station and central inter-city bus station would be at Union, but its not a very realistic option at the moment, I think we all agree.

Furthermore, there are many cities around the world with inter-city bus stations not right downtown, same with main train stations. Its no big deal if there is an excellent public transit connection to the downtown and other parts of the city to make up for that (which is the case here).

For now there aren't many places to walk to from this location, but that is slowly changing. The trainyards big box centre is right beside, there is a hotel which is expanding across the Queensway, St-Laurent isn't far (one stop away). Plus, for people living in the East and South of the city, this is a great location to arrive at from out of town as the travel time by public transit will be quicker than from downtown. The West end people lose out, but with the new LRT on the way, this won't be a big issue anyway.

I think this ideal world of having every inter-city mode of transit arriving right smack downtown is over-rated.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by phil235

Establishing a viable commuter rail system is a pretty good reason. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any commuter system in North America where the trains stop 3km from downtown and everyone has to hop on a bus to get where they are going.

I really don't think it would be all that effective in that role though, because Union Station isn't central downtown, and therefore most people would likely have to take transit anyway. Given the choice, I think the only truly effective option for commuter rail in Ottawa would be to have it run through a tunnel across downtown. Obviously this would be prohibitively expensive though, so the status quo is probably best for now.

[Mille Sabords]

What's the real-life inter-modal necessity between Via and Voyageur today? Why do the two need to be in the same building? Is there something larger in the works here?

Because, quite frankly, the way I see it, it's the VIA station that should relocate. These terminals must offer a 22-year-old student the possibility of getting off the bus on foot and immediately be able to walk anywhere. Shunting a terminal to the middle of nowhere, as the VIA station is now, for the sake of having a hub, is missing the point. How are those stations used and by whom?

Unless and until there is an urban fabric reaching the current VIA station, I think the bus terminal is fine where it is. It can stand to be intensified to accommodate more buses, but its location is fine.

[jcollins]

But how would you get trains into the core, that would be an expensive endeavor.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

What's the real-life inter-modal necessity between Via and Voyageur today? Why do the two need to be in the same building? Is there something larger in the works here?

.

Thinking a bit about this. My thoughts are: I don't know but perhaps.

There has long been plans/dreams of high speed rail on the Quebec-Windsor corridor.

One of the problems with building this high speed rail is that it would no longer be feasible to have trains stopping in every little town along the way. Consequently you would either need to continue running the old fashioned slow trains in parallel (would there even be enough business?) or come up with something else. Having both services in the same building would allow transfers from the high speed trains to buses to complete the last lag of the journey to small communities.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I really don't think it would be all that effective in that role though, because Union Station isn't central downtown, and therefore most people would likely have to take transit anyway. Given the choice, I think the only truly effective option for commuter rail in Ottawa would be to have it run through a tunnel across downtown. Obviously this would be prohibitively expensive though, so the status quo is probably best for now.

If I'm not mistaken, the advisory panel created by Larry O'Brien recommended exactly what you are suggesting. Their thinking was that the DOTT should be designed to accommodate both LRT and heavy rail so it could be used by commuter trains as well. Not sure that recommendation got much serious consideration.