[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by reddog794

The MC, WTCC foot print is awfully large, almost large enough to put a 20,000 arena...

Agreed, it would be a good location, keeping the business it generates in the same area. It would suck having to see the Mooseheads and other concerts at the Forum for a couple of years, but.. I guess it would be worth it in the end.
Then again, the Forum compared to most of the other QMJHL arenas is still a huge step up

[Takeo]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Also, it would be impossible for this new development to have worse street level that what is currently there... [snip]

"It couldn't be worse" is true... but not a very compelling argument. Why not do something great... or even half-decent... rather than simply "better than a concrete wall".

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Agreed, it would be a good location, keeping the business it generates in the same area. It would suck having to see the Mooseheads and other concerts at the Forum for a couple of years, but.. I guess it would be worth it in the end.
Then again, the Forum compared to most of the other QMJHL arenas is still a huge step up

I agree with you there

And with the arena on one side and the convention centre on the other some really cool restaurants/bars would open in the blocks between these places.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Takeo

"It couldn't be worse" is true... but not a very compelling argument. Why not do something great... or even half-decent... rather than simply "better than a concrete wall".

Well I hope they can use alot of glass at ground level... and I agree its not a real argument... however filling those lots would make the whole area cohesive. It is one of the only major eyesores left (aside from the Texpark site, Clyde Street, and the Salter Street/Brewery Market) If we aren't going to get anything tall on the Clyde St. lots, this might be the only real chance to get something half-decent on these lands.

I'm all for Cogswell coming down in the future... I just hope we have a strong enough economic base so that real landmark developments can go in there.

[Takeo]

I heard on the radio this morning that the interchange is coming down. It sounded like they meant that it was happening soon... but I'm not sure since I was half away at 6 am. I checked the Herald website and it's now 6:18 am and they are still showing yesterday's paper?!?! I was awake enough to hear that Kelly wants public input as to what should replace it.

[Takeo]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1105507.html

Kelly is talking about starting public consultations about the removal of the interchange. I posted a copy/paste of the full article in another thread. Can help but wonder if the sudden desire to move froward on the Cogswell demolition has anything to do with the Convention Center proposals.

[hfx_chris]

Just regarding the Metro Centre, it's been mentioned here many a time before that the current MC was designed to be expanded at the ends... one suggestion here was to tear down the MC and build the new arena in the same place. Well why not just close the MC and do some extensive renovations for a year or two? Expand the upper bowl seating as originally designed, expand the concourses, or at least expand the east concourse, since the west concourse is kinda limited with Brunswick Street. Hell, there may even be an opportunity to expand the east and west upper bowls, and put in some proper skyboxes, which don't block half of the upper bowl seats. Then just do some major updating to the interior, new seating, new finishes, etc etc.
It would be tight, but if it was designed to be expanded... I don't know why it couldn't be now. And the money saved could be put toward a good medium-sized stadium.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

It would be tight, but if it was designed to be expanded... I don't know why it couldn't be now. And the money saved could be put toward a good medium-sized stadium.

They could put the money towards upgrades on the Forum Lands. I can see tht block becoming a major entertainment attraction for the North-End.

Personally I can see that block holding a medium-sized arena, tonnes of parking, some retail, maybe even some recreational facilities like a nice soccer/football field (which the peninsula lacks some of).

Every part of the peninsula needs an attraction. The South-End has SMU and PPP, Downtown has the Metro Centre and WTCC, the West-End has Dal and the Waeg, but there's nothing really notable in the North-End yet.

[Keith P.]

I was around when the MC opened and I do recall the discussion about how it was designed to be expanded. I believe -- but cannot confirm -- that the expansion was only for the north and south ends of the arena and it would involve giving those ends an upper level. The only way I can see that happening is not by having the existing upper bowls expanded to wrap either end, as there probably isn't enough space outside the existing walls for that -- certainly not on the south end and maybe not on the north either. But that doesn't mean you couldn't do something with an overhanging deck over the ends. That would mean the current private boxes at the south end would need to go. But it would not solve the problems created by the installation of the other private boxes (cramped aisles, poor flow of people) and the intrinsic problems of the current structure, such as overcrowded concourses, poor concessions, and tight seating.

What might be a better way to go would be to slice off the structure at the existing concourse level and go up. If you were to hang a full upper bowl over the existing lower bowl (essentially via a cantilever structure), that would allow you to also have new upper concourses. The existing cramped concourses and overcrowded concessions are the main drawback to the existing structure, so that problem gets solved. Plus as long as you built it high enough you could have a ring of private boxes that would not unduly obstruct views from the lower bowl. With the added capacity you could afford to install new seating in the lower bowl that would be a bit roomier, at least in seat width if not legroom. The drawback to this design might be a very high upper bowl. Plus I dunno how much cheaper all that would be than starting from scratch.

[hfx_chris]

More good ideas.
Leg room is my biggest problem with the current MC, it's always wickedly uncomfortable. Aside from that, I hardly ever leave my seat, so the concourses don't bother me, but I do know they get really overcrowded.

DJ, you say there's nothing really notable in the north end. I would say the Forum is quite notable, it may be an old building but it's quite functional. I mean lets face it, Halifax isn't going to have two MC-quality venues, not a city this size, so for what it is, the Forum is a great venue. Maybe a little cash to install some proper seating (hopefully the winter games money will do that). I mean, it's a better hockey venue than Cole Harbour Place, I would put it on par with the Sportsplex, albeit older. Plus the Forum has other parts too, common rooms, and the larger exhibition room where the flea market is held.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

DJ, you say there's nothing really notable in the north end. I would say the Forum is quite notable, it may be an old building but it's quite functional. I mean lets face it, Halifax isn't going to have two MC-quality venues, not a city this size, so for what it is, the Forum is a great venue. Maybe a little cash to install some proper seating (hopefully the winter games money will do that). I mean, it's a better hockey venue than Cole Harbour Place, I would put it on par with the Sportsplex, albeit older. Plus the Forum has other parts too, common rooms, and the larger exhibition room where the flea market is held.

Well the Forum is notable but even as you said it is getting up there in age. I think with just some money put into it saved from the MC upgrade and the 2011 money the Forum lands could become a lot nicer. While what I mentioned is not needed now, but I think over time more money should be invested to upgrade the lands in a major attraction for the North-End. Even just with some retail in the short-term the area could become a lot more attractive to visit.

Back to the Convention Centre though I was reading the HRM by Design files earlier tonight and no matter where the CC would go it would disobey the rules. If it were built in the Cogswell it would be destroying the vison of pedestrian-sized blocks. Likewise if it were built in the Herald Lands it would violate the "super-blocks" ban HRM by Design proposes since accoridng to people who have seen the renderings Grafton Street would be closed or covered over.

[terrynorthend]

Well they could gut the interior of the MC and the current WTCC, and then build a new MC with a footprint that is 90 degrees to the current. There should be more room that way.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Well they could gut the interior of the MC and the current WTCC, and then build a new MC with a footprint that is 90 degrees to the current. There should be more room that way.

I was thinking the same thing... it could be potentially cost effective. That would be a nice looking arena if they updated the non-brick exterior sections. Imagine entering in through the WTCC tower part.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I was thinking the same thing... it could be potentially cost effective.

I doubt it. You have the costs of gutting the current space, and then building new foundations and structures inside that envelope. All you would be saving is the land cost, which is insignificant, while adding a whole bunch of other costs.

Imagine entering in through the WTCC tower part.

Why? In fact, you can do that now, but it makes little sense to do so. A Brunswick entrance makes the most sense given the Argyle St congestion.

[sdm]

I maybe wrong here, but i was told that the original plan was to expand the trade centre into the MC because it would be a lot easier (and cost effective) to add a floor. When you think about the logistics’ of it; which makes more sense then trying to expand the MC in the same foot print.

Just think of the size the trade centre could be if they did that. Furthermore we would get a new MC, which to me makes a lot more sense in that why do we think we need two convention centers when a number of the larger Hotels/Pier 21 can deal with the smaller venues

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I doubt it. You have the costs of gutting the current space, and then building new foundations and structures inside that envelope. All you would be saving is the land cost, which is insignificant, while adding a whole bunch of other costs.



Why? In fact, you can do that now, but it makes little sense to do so. A Brunswick entrance makes the most sense given the Argyle St congestion.

There isn't much that needs gutting. We are talking about orienting the ice surface in the other direction. I am aware you can enter through the WTCC, but thats the point, you don't directly enter the arena.

I've been in the metro centre when it has been completely opened up... If the interiors of the trade centre were incorporated in the general layout it is totally feasible.

[musicman]

Demolition would be huge in that complex. a. The Floor layout of the WTCC is not friendly with the demands of an arena the size that is needed. b. The structural steel of the metro center runs East-West making the roof unsuitable for expansion in that direction due to the snow loads and rigging loads of concerts. c. all of the seating would have to be ripped up .... including the concrete portions... which from what i can tell are also structural supports. d. The internal loading/ unloading area is horrible at the best of times and should have never been built in that manner. The list of reasons not to do this is very long. The metro center should have been turned into a larger convention complex, while a new metro center should have been purpose built to meet the specifications of todays and tomorrows sports team and concert demands.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by musicman

Demolition would be huge in that complex. a. The Floor layout of the WTCC is not friendly with the demands of an arena the size that is needed. b. The structural steel of the metro center runs East-West making the roof unsuitable for expansion in that direction due to the snow loads and rigging loads of concerts. c. all of the seating would have to be ripped up .... including the concrete portions... which from what i can tell are also structural supports. d. The internal loading/ unloading area is horrible at the best of times and should have never been built in that manner. The list of reasons not to do this is very long. The metro center should have been turned into a larger convention complex, while a new metro center should have been purpose built to meet the specifications of todays and tomorrows sports team and concert demands.

Everything you say is true, and I agree totally. Unfortunately, the decision made regarding the Herald site rules out this very sensible approach.

[someone123]

Before all of this began I had kind of expected them to try to plan for a new Metro Centre and then expand the WTCC, as described. It seems like it would be very easy given the large interior space of the Metro Centre, while the old WTCC building is not useful for arena space.

Then again, maybe the WTCC contains a lot of office space that is value by itself..?

The current plan still seems strange to me but then again the more I think of it the more I'd like them to simply move ahead because it's been so long since anything of consequence has been built downtown.

[someone123]

By the way, any idea of when we will actually get a look at this proposal?

I'd expect it to be pretty highly visible.