Post some pictures of your city! II - Page 429

hipster duck · #**8561** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 3:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoomer

/\ about 20 years ago that might have been true, but it’s pretty active (pre-Covid reality) until well after the 2 a.m. bar close. Unlike some other cities, people stay or return downtown after work as that’s where the best restaurants, bars and pubs are. In my work travels I’d say it’s safe to say that in western Canada Victoria is the most vibrant downtown after Vancouver of course. I’ve been to Edmonton tons and the other main cities in Alberta, Sask and Manitoba. Shouldn’t be that surprising due to the large tourists numbers, the mild weather which encourages people to wander around any time of year, the primary role downtown has in Victoria, and increase in people living downtown. On weekends there is no real drop off, people come downtown to enjoy the shopping, coffee, food, activities.

I wouldnt’ be surprised though if Halifax was a bit more vibrant, especially with the larger student population downtown and a slightly larger metro population, as well as it being a great downtown.

I've never been to Winnipeg or Saskatoon, but I trust your judgment. Victoria has a vibrant, multi-purpose downtown (i.e. not just office workers, not just tourists, not just students). I think it has more going for it than downtown Calgary or Edmonton.

Of course, Edmonton and Calgary (and Winnipeg too, I believe) have urban, walkable neighbourhoods that cater to things like shopping and nightlife that are outside of downtown that Victoria kind of lacks. Oak Bay has a retail strip, but it's a bit fragmented and small.

Does Victoria have a big mall? I'm talking about a place with 250 stores that has stuff like an Apple Store and a Lululemon and is anchored by department stores. These places usually sucked life out of mid-sized downtowns in the early 1970s, and made it so that chain fashion and lifestyle retailers who could only justify one location in a metro of <500k invariably chose the mall. This wouldn't be as much of a problem in a metro of over 1 million, where there's enough demand to justify a downtown location plus one or two in high end suburban malls.

J.OT13 · #**8562** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 3:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I've never been to Winnipeg or Saskatoon, but I trust your judgment. Victoria has a vibrant, multi-purpose downtown (i.e. not just office workers, not just tourists, not just students). I think it has more going for it than downtown Calgary or Edmonton.

Of course, Edmonton and Calgary (and Winnipeg too, I believe) have urban, walkable neighbourhoods that cater to things like shopping and nightlife that are outside of downtown that Victoria kind of lacks. Oak Bay has a retail strip, but it's a bit fragmented and small.

Does Victoria have a big mall? I'm talking about a place with 250 stores that has an Apple Store and is anchored by department stores. These places usually sucked life out of mid-sized downtowns in the early 1970s, and made it so that chain fashion and lifestyle retailers who could only justify one location in a metro of <500k invariably chose the mall.

London, ON and Kitchener are similar in size to Victoria and Halifax, and they have malls like these and, predictably, their downtowns are pretty drab places.

It has the Bay Centre, formerly the Victoria Eaton Centre. Near Old Town, it has 93 stores, built in 1989. At over 400,000 square feet, it's pretty significant for a city its size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Centre

hipster duck · #**8563** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 3:37 PM**

^But that's a downtown shopping mall, kind of like the Rideau Centre or Eaton Centre where many people walk in from the surrounding streets. Arguably, it's even better, since it seems to have been shoehorned entirely within an existing city block.

I'm thinking more of a Bayshore or Yorkdale kind of place.

Victoria has an outdoor-oriented "lifestyle centre" called Uptown, but that looks like it was designed or built in the last decade or so.

J.OT13 · #**8564** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 3:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^But that's a downtown shopping mall, kind of like the Rideau Centre or Eaton Centre where many people walk in from the surrounding streets. Arguably, it's even better, since it seems to have been shoehorned entirely within an existing city block.

I'm thinking more of a Bayshore or Yorkdale kind of place.

Victoria has an outdoor-oriented "lifestyle centre" called Uptown, but that looks like it was designed or built in the last decade or so.

Sorry about that. I miss understood the question.

Looks like they have two traditional mid-century malls outside of downtown.

Hillside Shopping Centre, built in 1962 with 100+ stores. Just under 600,000 square feet. It's around the geographical centre of the city.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hi...4d-123.3355306
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillside_Shopping_Centre

And the Mayfair Shopping Centre. A little over 2 kilometers west of Hillside. 520,000 square feet. Built in 1963.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ma...4d-123.3718047

someone123 · #**8565** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 5:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

I did some digging and the issue seems to be that Nova Scotia started building Province House in 1811 when its population was only about 70,000 people. Victoria started building BC's parliament building in 1893 when BC had a population of about 100,000. So NS wasn't massively bigger than BC when the building was commissioned in each place; it was actually a tad smaller. Still, the difference in scale and grandeur is huge considering each province was of similar size when these buildings went up.

1811 and 1893 are two different eras in construction, finance, global trade and stability, etc. There are very few NS legislature type buildings in North America from that era, and maybe no others in Canada. Does any other Canadian city have a major public building still in use from the 1810's? Maybe Quebec City?

Quote:

There are reasons for everything but the reality is that Victoria creams Halifax when it comes to large grand buildings. That we're talking about Scotia Square and the Nova Centre as feathers in Halifax's cap speaks volumes.

But I didn't say that Scotia Square was like the Empress, I just pointed out that Halifax has bigger office complexes (and the older downtown has a more office-y feel than downtown Victoria, while some of the commercial and entertainment stuff that happens in downtown Victoria is spread out to different parts of inner city Halifax). There are lots of other historic landmarks in Halifax like the Bank of NS HQ, Dominion Public Building, North Park Armoury, Dalhousie, the tower in Fleming Park, and the Citadel. And I think some newer developments like Purdy's Wharf qualify as landmarks too.

hipster duck · #**8566** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 5:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sorry about that. I miss understood the question.

Looks like they have two traditional mid-century malls outside of downtown.

Hillside Shopping Centre, built in 1962 with 100+ stores. Just under 600,000 square feet. It's around the geographical centre of the city.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hi...4d-123.3355306
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillside_Shopping_Centre

And the Mayfair Shopping Centre. A little over 2 kilometers west of Hillside. 520,000 square feet. Built in 1963.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ma...4d-123.3718047

Sort of. Not to belabour this, but I think there's a difference between a mall like Hillside and a mall like, say, Masonville Place in London, ON (which is similar in size to Victoria).

Masonville has a Hudson's Bay and a Lululemon and an Apple Store. Hillside is anchored by a Canadian Tire and a Marshall's. Victoria doesn't have an Apple Store, but its Lululemon and Hudson's Bay locations are downtown. Downtown London has a lot more of its storefronts occupied by things like convenience stores and social service agencies than Victoria does.

That's not to say that the only reason why mid-sized downtowns flounder is because of the presence of a large, high-end mall, but it does weaken the ability for a downtown to attract retail that caters to people with a disposable income, which limits its attractiveness in general.

someone123 · #**8567** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 5:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That's not to say that the only reason why mid-sized downtowns flounder is because of the presence of a large, high-end mall, but it does weaken the ability for a downtown to attract retail that caters to people with a disposable income, which limits its attractiveness in general.

Yep. You are getting at something important for the smaller cities. The regional stores will only have one location so they have to choose whether to set up in a mall or downtown. Victoria has relatively underdeveloped malls for its size and has some major retailers downtown like Lululemon.

Kingston is another smaller city that has more significant downtown shops than one might expect. Maybe more than larger London.

In Halifax there is 1 Apple store in the metro and there was a debate over whether it would go downtown or to a mall. It ended up in a mall. Some other chains like Lululemon and Urban Outfitters are downtown. Suburban Halifax had a lot of low end malls and a few of them have died completely, reverting to big box, but one went upscale and has stores like Apple and Coach now.

MolsonExport · #**8568** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 6:27 PM**

London has one upscale mall (Masonville) in the North end, one also-ran (White Oaks) in the South end, and two dead malls, Westmount and Galleria (now, Citibank Plaza) in the West end and Downtown, respectively.

Just when we all thought downtown London was finally turning the corner after 4 brutal decades of underinvestment and bombed out storefronts, Covid came along to put another nail in the coffin. Victoria's (and Halifax's) downtown is 10-15 times more vibrant than London's. No exaggeration.

J.OT13 · #**8569** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 6:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

Nova Scotia's size relative to BC in 2020 is irrelevant when the issue is the size of each 150 years ago. I did some digging and the issue seems to be that Nova Scotia started building Province House in 1811 when its population was only about 70,000 people. Victoria started building BC's parliament building in 1893 when BC had a population of about 100,000. So NS wasn't massively bigger than BC when the building was commissioned in each place; it was actually a tad smaller. Still, the difference in scale and grandeur is huge considering each province was of similar size when these buildings went up.

Province House was built in a time when Nova Scotia was little more than a British colony, while Victoria's legislature was built to serve a Province of the Dominion of Canada. It was a time of more optimism, grandeur and vision. Not to mention they probably wanted a grand legislature in the City named for the Queen.

There might also have been some competitive spirit with other provinces (Quebec, New Brunswick and Ontario built their new legislatures around the same time, and the foreseeable addition of other provinces in the then near future).

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123

1811 and 1893 are two different eras in construction, finance, global trade and stability, etc. There are very few NS legislature type buildings in North America from that era, and maybe no others in Canada. Does any other Canadian city have a major public building still in use from the 1810's? Maybe Quebec City?

Kingston City Hall is the closest I can think of, built in 1844.

The Great Scaper · #**8570** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 7:01 PM**

Victoria has quite a few large malls. As mentioned there's the Bay Center downtown, Hillside Mall and Mayfair Mall in the City's boundaries. There's also Uptown which is huge and has North America's second largest Walmart located in Saanich a municipality of Victoria. Also in Saanich is Tillicum Mall. In Langford there's the West Shore Mall and numberous large shopping plazas.

Also Victoria has several small village centers. As mentioned there's Oak Bay which has a really nice walkable town center. There is also Sidney which is quite large and has a really nice Town center which is right across from the international airport. There's also Brentwood Bay village and Langford is now the 3rd largest populated Municipality with huge shopping areas and a center area too.

someone123 · #**8571** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 8:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It was a time of more optimism, grandeur and vision.

No matter how optimistic and visionary you were in 1811 you lived in an era when there was no electricity or telegraphs or telephones, metal was weak and prohibitively expensive to use as a major structural component in new buildings, there were no modern explosives, no trains or steamships, etc. The materials for Province House in NS would have been moved by sailing ship and oxcart and then mostly worked by hand. The expense of a lot of legislatures from around 1800 was large as a percent of government revenues. Massachusetts spent a huge amount of money in its day building a portion of the State House that looks pretty modest today. The economy was a lot smaller and building was more expensive.

I tend to want to put things into a historical context when looking at buildings. To me, the Parthenon or Tower of London are not insignificant today because you can find much larger buildings in Dubai. I find the older buildings more interesting if they were built in different styles and using different methods. Province House is a Georgian-era Palladian gem.

kool maudit · #**8572** Posted **Jan 25, 2021, 9:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123

I tend to want to put things into a historical context when looking at buildings. To me, the Parthenon or Tower of London are not insignificant today because you can find much larger buildings in Dubai. I find the older buildings more interesting if they were built in different styles and using different methods. Province House is a Georgian-era Palladian gem.

I agree completely. The Nova Scotia and BC buildings being compared are as distant in time from each other as the New York Public Library and the Yokohama Landmark Tower.

Kilgore Trout · #**8573** Posted **Jan 26, 2021, 12:30 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123

1811 and 1893 are two different eras in construction, finance, global trade and stability, etc. There are very few NS legislature type buildings in North America from that era, and maybe no others in Canada. Does any other Canadian city have a major public building still in use from the 1810's? Maybe Quebec City?

This is an interesting question. I can't find any other public buildings that are as old and still serving their original purpose.

I guess it depends on your definition of "public" because there are a number of religious structures that are older, like the Ursulines in Quebec City which was built in 1642 as a monastery and school.

There's also the Château Ramezay in Montreal, which was built as the French colonial governor's residence in 1705 and later served as a military headquarters, courthouse and university building. Not sure if that fits the definition or not.

FrAnKs · #**8574** Posted **Jan 26, 2021, 1:17 AM**

St-Jean-Baptiste, Québec City

By PicAxis on Flickr
https://www.flickr.com/photos/faque/...15276/sizes/h/

Martin Mtl · #**8575** Posted **Jan 26, 2021, 2:29 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

This is an interesting question. I can't find any other public buildings that are as old and still serving their original purpose.

I guess it depends on your definition of "public" because there are a number of religious structures that are older, like the Ursulines in Quebec City which was built in 1642 as a monastery and school.

There's also the Château Ramezay in Montreal, which was built as the French colonial governor's residence in 1705 and later served as a military headquarters, courthouse and university building. Not sure if that fits the definition or not.

Le Vieux séminaire Saint-Sulpice on Place d'Armes was build in 1688 and still serve today the same purpose as then.

zoomer · #**8576** Posted **Jan 26, 2021, 3:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123

Yep. You are getting at something important for the smaller cities. The regional stores will only have one location so they have to choose whether to set up in a mall or downtown. Victoria has relatively underdeveloped malls for its size and has some major retailers downtown like Lululemon.

I think this is very accurate, the malls that do exist are mid-sized and I wouldn’t say any of them are true destination malls. For now, and hopefully forever..downtown Victoria is king when it comes to shopping, no matter what some suburbanites and downtown haters say.

It has by far the best and largest concentration of restaurants, bars, pubs coffee shops, breweries, bakeries, asian dessert places, etc, etc. Not even close, nor should it be with the large tourism industry and locals who go downtown because of the quality/choice. It also has a huge concentration of gyms, yoga studios, dance and various fitness studios. You’ll also find the best selection of outdoor equipment and clothing stores, much of local, like the other businesses. Again it has the best selection of antiques, thus upper Fort street is called Antique Row, the best trendy/higher end furniture stores, thus the nickname the ‘design district’ in the old town of downtown. Yet again the best hipster/young person clothing stores with a selection of high end to quality vintage clothes. Jewellery stores, services, whatever, except for the big box experience, there really is no other place that compares. Comic and game stores - once again downtown. Best, largest and most iconic book stores - downtown.

My pic of the hardware/general store Capital Iron which has been around since 1932. Until just a few years ago the basement was full of bizarre ship salvage items as that they used to be in the business of selling ship salvage. They have Victoria’s largest selection of outdoor patio furniture, bbq, etc in the parking lot, although that large lot by the waterfront is destined for future condo development. Next door is a large outdoor equipment store selling kayaks, clothing, etc.

Capital Iron by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

As for books you have Russel Book, which just moved to a larger location and according to Wikipedia “claimed to be the largest independent used bookseller in Canada, with their locations containing over 1 million volumes. They hoped the new location would allow them to increase their inventory to 1.25 million volumes.” Perhaps more famous with the tourists is Munro’s Books which is in a gorgeous heritage building.

Also of interest is W&J Wilson’s Clothiers, opened in 1862 and is the oldest operating business in Victoria to stay in its original location, and the oldest family-run clothing store in its original location in all of North America.

I think the city will get through the pandemic, assuming that pretty much ends this year, lol. Smart business people are moving in and probably getting good deals on long term leases. I’m surprised by the number of new places that have opened up, offsetting many of the closures. For example, a new trendy men’s fashion place called Dangerfield just set up before Christmas and in November Bailey Nelson (optical) opened up in this refurbished heritage building with new apartments up above.

Bailey Nelson by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Anyways - good to see the Quebec picture - I was just looking at it the other day in Google Earth to compare the settlement pattern vs. Victoria, very interesting!

Finally, once the big one hits.. the BC Parliament buildings and the Empress will be no more, along with much of the historic district, so we’ll be back to square one. Nothing at that scale or significance has been built for well over a century, but then again, what buildings in Canada built in the past say 70 years will be iconic to that degree in the future? We need to start building great buildings and public spaces again.. maybe in time we’ll realize that we have been in some cases.

Acajack · #**8577** Posted **Jan 26, 2021, 4:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoomer

I think this is very accurate, the malls that do exist are mid-sized and I wouldn’t say any of them are true destination malls. For now, and hopefully forever..downtown Victoria is king when it comes to shopping, no matter what some suburbanites and downtown haters say.

It has by far the best and largest concentration of restaurants, bars, pubs coffee shops, breweries, bakeries, asian dessert places, etc, etc. Not even close, nor should it be with the large tourism industry and locals who go downtown because of the quality/choice. It also has a huge concentration of gyms, yoga studios, dance and various fitness studios. You’ll also find the best selection of outdoor equipment and clothing stores, much of local, like the other businesses. Again it has the best selection of antiques, thus upper Fort street is called Antique Row, the best trendy/higher end furniture stores, thus the nickname the ‘design district’ in the old town of downtown. Yet again the best hipster/young person clothing stores with a selection of high end to quality vintage clothes. Jewellery stores, services, whatever, except for the big box experience, there really is no other place that compares. Comic and game stores - once again downtown. Best, largest and most iconic book stores - downtown.

My pic of the hardware/general store Capital Iron which has been around since 1932. Until just a few years ago the basement was full of bizarre ship salvage items as that they used to be in the business of selling ship salvage. They have Victoria’s largest selection of outdoor patio furniture, bbq, etc in the parking lot, although that large lot by the waterfront is destined for future condo development. Next door is a large outdoor equipment store selling kayaks, clothing, etc.
.

I have always found that downtown Victoria has that unique quality of being nicely human-scaled, while not being a total nightmare to drive and park in. Like it or not this probably helps to maintain its status as the nerve centre for a lot of stuff in its metro area.

someone123 · #**8578** Posted **Jan 26, 2021, 7:34 PM**

I've been to Capital Iron a few times. It's neat. I don't think I've seen the metal-clad building next door in person yet. In Vancouver too many buildings downtown are airy glass sculptures. I like the masonry of the older buildings and that metal cladding complements them. It looks solid and it has some interesting texture. I find developers are also afraid of or too cheap to add much interesting pedestrian-level ornamentation.