BUFFALO | Development Thread

[Halovet]

Originally Posted by chevy064

Does anyone have a dirty sock laying around that they could shove in that lady's mouth??

I have an idea - why not just build 12 - 50 foot buildings instead. That oughta make Buffalo's skyline look more like Syracuse - nice and flat. She would probably be happy with that.

With the current tallest being 529 (or so) ft, The tower is NOT to tall by Buffalo standards, but right in line. As I said before, I'd bet anything this building started out at 800 ft, and has already been scaled down. I wonder if Ms. Hoyt has been listening to Albany backers? Albany, long proud of having the state's tallest outside "DA CITY", can't be pleased with the increasing possibility of losing that title. ABN Hates being 2nd to Buffalo, or anyone else in any category. That's been clear for decades. Hell, ya never know with politicians. Buffalo's population is probably "exploding" out of control by Hoyt's standards. Perhaps if we reach the point of BUFFALO, WYOMING, and 5 story towers, that would make her happy.

Buffalo may not be what it was 40 years ago, but it still has the DNA of a Top Twenty US city. That won't change anytime soon unless for the better. The city has bottomed out long ago, up, is the only possible direction. NOW BUILD THAT GOTDAM TOWER! and we want our 600 ft.

[Visiteur]

Originally Posted by chevy064

Does anyone have a dirty sock laying around that they could shove in that lady's mouth??

I have an idea - why not just build 12 - 50 foot buildings instead. That oughta make Buffalo's skyline look more like Syracuse - nice and flat. She would probably be happy with that.

Smartass . But I'm glad this project has jumped the first hurdle on its way to becoming a reality.

[Halovet]

Originally Posted by Visiteur

Smartass . But I'm glad this project has jumped the first hurdle on its way to becoming a reality.

You Cuse folks got to be going nucking Futz over that DestiNY thing by now. (poor Peanut! )hey, any news Upstate is good news I guess. Except Albany, they suck!

[westcoastperspective]

Uniland still high on condo project

Business First

To paraphrase Mark Twain, reports and rumors that Uniland Development Co. is withdrawing its plans for a high-rise condominium project on the site of the former Park Lane Restaurant are not true.

For the past few weeks, Uniland officials have been fielding a number of calls about an urban legend that has the Amherst-based developer stepping away from the condo project that will overlook Gates Circle.

"The boring, unspectacular reality is that we are still hard at work on the design," Uniland said in a statement issued Thursday morning.

Uniland has already undertaken several steps to move the project forward. The company bought the Park Lane Restaurant property for $1.2 million last year. The Park Lane closed on New Year's Eve and its contents, including the furnishings and fixtures, were auctioned off on Jan. 10.

Uniland has retained the Buffalo architectural firm of Hamilton Houston & Lownie along with Diamond & Schmitt Associates of Toronto to design the complex, which may be as tall as 20 stories.

The entire project carries a $40 million price tag.

"It would be certainly be quicker and less expensive to release a rough version of the design, but it would likely change as we continue to explore the subtleties of the project," Uniland said in its statement. "We remain committed to bringing the community a fully resolved architectural design as soon as possible. That's the only fair way for objective evaluation."

The final design is expected later this winter.

The project has drawn both praise and criticism.

Supporters say it fills a growing need for upscale condominiums in Buffalo. Most of the criticism comes from residents in the neighboring Park Lane Condominiums, who feel the project may destroy the views from some of their units.

Before construction can begin, several hurdles have to be cleared including completing environmental impact statements and receiving approval from Buffalo officials.

"The current process is much like a Rubik's Cube," Uniland added in its statement. "As we talk to experts about issues such as optimum square footage, the architecture must change in response, which changes interior layout, which changes views, which changes where optimum square footage should go, and so on. The process is necessary and will lead to an endpoint, but we are not there yet. What looks like foot-dragging is actually a healthy, albeit sometimes strenuous exercise in delivering the best possible design."

[homestar]

I may be in the minority on this but I'm not concerned about Issa tower's height. Looking at the big picture for Buffalo, it's not really important if it's "the tallest" or not. Especially if we're talking about a few feet. If the final design is built and it's only 35 stories, I'll still be happy. It's rare we get anything over 10 stories. As long as it makes an impact on the skyline, I'll be happy. Even if it's not the tallest.

Regarding WGRZ fence: WTF?! They replaced barbed razor wire with giant metal spikes? Is this an improvement? They must think Buffalo is like Barter Town from Mad Max movies.

On that note, I think we'd do well with Tina Turner as Mayor

[Halovet]

Originally Posted by homestar

I may be in the minority on this but I'm not concerned about Issa tower's height. Looking at the big picture for Buffalo, it's not really important if it's "the tallest" or not. Especially if we're talking about a few feet. If the final design is built and it's only 35 stories, I'll still be happy. It's rare we get anything over 10 stories. As long as it makes an impact on the skyline, I'll be happy. Even if it's not the tallest.

Regarding WGRZ fence: WTF?! They replaced barbed razor wire with giant metal spikes? Is this an improvement? They must think Buffalo is like Barter Town from Mad Max movies.

On that note, I think we'd do well with Tina Turner as Mayor

Two points:

A: You're right! You are in the minority.

B: What this town desperately needs is somebody with "AN AGRESSIVE VISION". Someone that realizes what Buffalo was, and cares enough to want to see it turn back toward that direction. I have always thought that the largest city in the state (outside Gothem) should have the tallest building. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way, and that someone that has what it takes is willing to make it happen.

If the tower is built, it will have a domino effect just as it has elsewhere. More "aggressive" investment will follow as other developers begin to see the city differently, realizing that Buffalo is worthy of major investment after all.

The tower MUST be the tallest for a reason. "TO MAKE A STATEMENT" as Ms. Hoyt was told OVER, and OVER and OVER and OVER and....

What is fascinating, is that it took someone from, not just out of town, but out of the country to see this potential. This speaks volumes of how the rest of the country see's Buffalo, but more impotently, how the citizens of the city see themselves. It's time for a real attitude adjustment. Time to ignore the small minded, and Build the Hell out of everything. MAKE BUFFALO LOOK GREAT, BECAUSE IT IS GREAT!

and Homestar, I'd do well with Tina Turner anywhere, anytime!

[kznyc2k]

Originally Posted by Halovet

Except Albany, they suck!

Just to make the distinction perfectly clear, you mean the politicians of Albany, not the people.. the people of Albany have big enough inferiority complexes to their fellow downstaters to even worry about how Buffalo's doing or if they'll lose the title of having the tallest bldg outside Da City. And remember, your skyline is made up of mostly private buildings whereas if you take away all our gov't towers, we're left with perhaps a dinkier skyline than Syracuse..!

However, I am loath to let B-lo get the title of "tallest outside of NYC"

[mrussell83]

Originally Posted by kznyc2k

Just to make the distinction perfectly clear, you mean the politicians of Albany, not the people.. the people of Albany have big enough inferiority complexes to their fellow downstaters to even worry about how Buffalo's doing or if they'll lose the title of having the tallest bldg outside Da City. And remember, your skyline is made up of mostly private buildings whereas if you take away all our gov't towers, we're left with perhaps a dinkier skyline than Syracuse..!

However, I am loath to let B-lo get the title of "tallest outside of NYC"

I don't think anyone has a problem with the Residents of Albany... Unless they are involed with State Government

[Sgt. Sabre]

Originally Posted by Halovet

I still want to know what happened to 615 ft?

593 is one of the numbers that has been thrown around since the thing was first presented. I wouldn't worry about it yet. Maybe the extra 23' is just unoccupied superstructure, or antenna(e) or something?

How about we take one of those huge radio masts from Grand Island or Colden (the PBS tower is 1172'), and have the tallest building in the US?

[Halovet]

Originally Posted by kznyc2k

Just to make the distinction perfectly clear, you mean the politicians of Albany, not the people.. the people of Albany have big enough inferiority complexes to their fellow downstaters to even worry about how Buffalo's doing or if they'll lose the title of having the tallest bldg outside Da City. And remember, your skyline is made up of mostly private buildings whereas if you take away all our gov't towers, we're left with perhaps a dinkier skyline than Syracuse..!

However, I am loath to let B-lo get the title of "tallest outside of NYC"

Glad to see you didn't take me out of context kznyc2k. The good people of Albany are of course as good as any.

Hey, isn't that the building I love to hate in your avatar?

Originally Posted by mrussell83

I don't think anyone has a problem with the Residents of Albany... Unless they are involed with State Government

You said it mrussell83! Whip em Good!

Originally Posted by Sgt. Sabre

593 is one of the numbers that has been thrown around since the thing was first presented. I wouldn't worry about it yet. Maybe the extra 23' is just unoccupied superstructure, or antenna(e) or something?

How about we take one of those huge radio masts from Grand Island or Colden (the PBS tower is 1172'), and have the tallest building in the US?

and poor Susan Curran Hoyt would jump off The gotdam Peace Bridge!

Seriously though, you made me feel a little better with those possible (potential) building specs. THANKS!

[Sulley]

Well, might as well put this here too.

Okay, here is my very preliminary plan for the Aud.

In a situation involving redeveloping an existing building as large as the Buffalo Memorial Auditorium, unique ideas and solutions are needed. My proposal is to build a new convention center connected to the Aud -- by building over Main Street. Yes, that's right -- over Main.

In my plan, the main portion of the Aud would be renovated completely into top tier space with a variety of functions - meeting rooms, an auditorium, exhibition space, etc.

The front "entrance" of the Aud would serve as a foyer to the building. The two curved sections would serve two different purposes -- one as either a restaurant or retail space and the other as a museum - chronicling either the history of the city of Buffalo and its development or the history of sports in Buffalo (a Buffalo sports hall of fame, perhaps?).

The new exhibition building would be built on the site of the current office building and parking lot and would be bounded by Washington and Hanover Streets. It would be raised off of the ground in order to connect directly to the Aud. The addition would function as space for events that require one level, high ceilings, and few columns. Since the metro rail station would still be located under the building, a new "Civic Center" station would be designated making it quite easy for conventioneers traveling to the center from other downtown hotels on Main. Escalators would connect to the main level from the station.

In the front of the new exhibition hall (bordering Main and the 190) would be a miniature plaza and pocket park. The new building would have a dramatic glass façade in front of Main and on Washington Street, which would serve as the primary entrance to the structure. The view from the plaza would look similar to this:



From Washington Street, the façade would largely be the same but with some retail offerings on the ground level:



On the block south of the complex (which is bounded by Hanover, Main, Perry, and Washington), a new 4 star convention hotel would be constructed with at least 500 rooms. The building would sit on a podium that would contain even more meeting space and a large grand ballroom. The hotel and base would be connected to the center via a sky bridge for easy access for conventioneers and would tie in directly to the new exhibition level. The base would also have retail and restaurant space and would aim to sign tenants such as P.F. Chang’s, Fleming’s, McCormick & Schmick’s, Ruth’s Chris and other upscale chains. (conventioneers love them).

The hotel I envision would look somewhat similar to this:



Here is a map of the entire complex – keep in mind that this is from scratch and is not very professional at this point.

[Halovet]

I love it Sulley. Trouble is, at this point, only Issa would listen, and he's kinda busy right now. The plan looks more INDY than B-LO right now, but I'm confident within a few years, when The Issa tower is underway, folks like The Mayor, and others will look toward a new Convention Center, and best believe, The Aud will be a big part of that thinking. You are not alone with that Ideal. Don't forget, The Seneca Casino should be underway also, and close proximity to the Convention Center can only be a bonus. One thing for certain. A new Center is a must.

[steel]

I reject this plan, valiant effort though it is. The convention center should be on the massive parking lots behindn the HSBC atrium Building. CC's are so massive they should be off to the side. The area of teh Aud and all those blcosk in front of HABC area should be reserved for active retail and commercial and residential uses. The convention center can acta s a link between the new casino and the waterfront retail residentila stuff if you put it behind HASB Atrium.

[Downtown Bolivar]

As far as a new Convention Center goes--it's got to happen. The current one is total failure. Rochester's convention center is a really nice space in a great location. When people come in for a convention, they get a glamour shot of Rochester. When they come to Buffalo...well what can I say? I personally like Sulley's plan. Putting a convention center behind the HSBC atrium gives the same thing we've got now--don't hide the thing. Rochester's not hidden and Javitz in NYC is certainly not hidden. It ought to be a showplace where conventioneers get sold on the city--main street on the water is the best location. If it gets connected to a larger complex including the Aud, the new space doesn't even have to be as large as the old convention center. Here's an added piece--revive plans to put a transport hub in the front of the Aud as part of a convention center master plan. I also like the idea of a convention center station--Metrorail works really great as a downtown tram.

Speaking of NYC, aren't they swirling plans to build another convention center with some major state aid--like $1 Billion? I know the original Javitz convention center cost around $500 million. I think there are good times to play the WNY inferiority card in Albany and leverage some serious capital so that the only thing Buffalo ends up paying is infrastucture costs. I think this especially works well with a new Governor who specifically talked about investing more state money in upstate. $200-300 million could get this whole project done. And while their at it find some money to extend Metro into the Cobbestone district and the inner harbor. Use some historic looking cars like San Fran--let's do this right and create a cool downtown tram system--it doesn't have to cost a lot to work well..

I know this is getting long, but the point is that Buffalo can creative and there are lots of funding sources to be found (pork anyone? or how about Public-Private Partnerships). Even with a new tough talking, get tough on pork Congress--do we really believe it's going to stop? Congressman Higgins--bring home the bacon!

[Sulley]

Originally Posted by steel

I reject this plan, valiant effort though it is. The convention center should be on the massive parking lots behindn the HSBC atrium Building. CC's are so massive they should be off to the side. The area of teh Aud and all those blcosk in front of HABC area should be reserved for active retail and commercial and residential uses. The convention center can acta s a link between the new casino and the waterfront retail residentila stuff if you put it behind HASB Atrium.

While I agree in principal, I think that the area behind the atrium wouldn't work -- it's too far removed from everything downtown, including existing hotels, attractions, and the all important thing - the bars and clubs that convention attendees enjoy.

I think we can all agree on one thing - building a new convention center is quite a daunting task for Buffalo, and all locations have their own set of drawbacks.

[Halovet]

Originally Posted by Sulley

While I agree in principal, I think that the area behind the atrium wouldn't work -- it's too far removed from everything downtown, including existing hotels, attractions, and the all important thing - the bars and clubs that convention attendees enjoy.

any plan would be steered to moving people to take advantage of Metro Rail. Isn't it still free within those blocks?

[mrussell83]

The Rail is free above ground.

[steel]

Originally Posted by Sulley

While I agree in principal, I think that the area behind the atrium wouldn't work -- it's too far removed from everything downtown, including existing hotels, attractions, and the all important thing - the bars and clubs that convention attendees enjoy.

I think we can all agree on one thing - building a new convention center is quite a daunting task for Buffalo, and all locations have their own set of drawbacks.

That might seem logical but in reality convention centers work best when they are slightly removed. Some of the biggest and busiest are removed from the center of action. They are big dead buildings with everything happening on the inside. They kill streets around them. Witness Chicago. McCormick is far from the happening places. If it was downtown it would be a disaster. Boston Just built its new center on the outskirts of downtown. besides, The rear of the Atrium is not that far.

[Sulley]

In all honesty, I consider both sites to be on the "edge" of downtown.

I really wish they hadn't built the atrium. It's one lone little suburban office building on the corner of a large block of parking. It ruins everything if you want to develop the rest of the site.

Bah, HSBC. Bah.

[steel]

True but, the Aud - waterfront - Skyway site will become more of a focal point with the plans they currently have cooking...pretty much your plan without the convention center. There are (dead) plans for a convention center on the Back of Atrium site

They have mentioned the Atrium building for development into a more tourist oriented building. I believe that thinking is to put HSBC into a new building nearby if that happened.