Lets send some T.O. business growth to Downtown Hamilton.

[Taller Better]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

speaking of 'hacks' I can't believe what I just read - "How can you "send business" to any place? Business decides where it wants to set up."

I'll tell you how - stop subsidizing sprawl. stop having the government pay for mega-highways in order to make this sprawl somewhat livable. Start charging more than 15 or 20% of the development costs to developers - try 75 -80%.
hamilton's urban core is in 'rough' condition because the downtown businesses and residents have subsidized sprawl for 3 decades...and lo and behold, there's no money in the city coffers.
Cities should determine where growth and business will go. Business will go where it's cheap and convenient. Right now that is on productive farmland because our governments are so far in the sack with them they won't make proper planning choices for our cities.
Business should be flocking to downtown Toronto and Hamilton, not leaving for no-man's land.

??? And what does any of that have to do with my statement? I was not saying you cannot attract or keep business in downtown Toronto, I was saying you cannot just approach business and ask them to relocate (hence the word "send" not "attract") to Hamilton. Had you read my next sentence:"Every downtown of every city has to work hard to keep business there and not have it move away" maybe you would not have become so befuddled. If Hamilton wants to attract business, good on 'em, and I wish them luck. I do not understand how we are going to "send" it to them.

[J. Will]

>>speaking of 'hacks' I can't believe what I just read - "How can you "send business" to any place?<<

I get the impression mike wishes we were a communist country. The businesses and people will go where the government says damnit!

[raisethehammer]

We aren't 'communist' in Canada, but we have socialism for the rich.
You and I work our butts off everyday and then our governments (at all levels) take that money and subsidize a multi-billion dollor corporations move to a piece of productive farmland instead of setting proper rules and tax structures that would result in many more of them locating in downtowns and urban areas.
Perhaps the word 'send' isn't the right one to use. But that's what we are doing right now. You and I are paying the fees and in essense we are 'sending' these companies to ridiculous places they wouldn't have dreamt of going to 50 years ago.
Fix the tax and fee structures and a byproduct will be 'sending', 'attracting' -whatever word you want to use - new companies into our cities, not out of them.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

<editted by moderator> Ok, that was kinda entertaining in a messed-up kinda way but not really necessary. k-thx.

[raisethehammer]

oh c'mon! What did that last post say? Must have been good if it was edited...put it back up Mr Moderator...we're all big people. lol.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

oh c'mon! What did that last post say? Must have been good if it was edited...put it back up Mr Moderator...we're all big people. lol.

Oh it was, and extraordinarily tasteful I might point out. But I have to respect the mods judgment so I won’t repost the link to the screaming computer kid at youtube

Is anything on this site ever truly necessary?

[Doady]

Downtown Mississauga? If there is one it's a mall.

There are probably more people living and working in Mississauga City Centre than there are in Downtown Hamilton. Mississauga certainly does have more people using transit than Hamilton does. Hamilton is too far for most people in the GTA to commute to anyways.

[miketoronto]

First of all you guys read way to much negative into my posts. I did not say we are going to tell business where to locate.

What I mean is, we should have programs or something in place to encourage business to locate in places like Hamilton.

Yeah we are skipping Mississauga City Centre on the way. But who cares. Its not a real downtown and never will be. Plus its only 20min from downtown Toronto, meaning we don't need another downtown so close.

The whole idea of building up Hamilton, is to revive the core, and provide a place for secondary business that are not going to locate in the centre of downtown Toronto.

But it still is a benefit, because atleast we are putting business into already built up urban areas, and real downtowns with connections etc.

Ontop of that, we can focus transit more if we are taking people to real downtowns, and not trying to get them to every single suburb out there.

I really don't see the why you guys have an issue with encouraging more business to locate in our cities, instead of trying to recreate downtown in the suburbs(and lets just admit that plan has failed as the traffic shows).

We should promote the real urban centres we have. And I think Hamilton would be an amazing place to encourage business development in the core.

After that is done, then work on Oshawa.

For a forum with people who care about cities I really do find it interesting how many of you support the growth of our suburbs instead of promoting our existing downtowns.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Yeah we are skipping Mississauga City Centre on the way. But who cares. Its not a real downtown and never will be. Plus its only 20min from downtown Toronto, meaning we don't need another downtown so close.

Instead of sprawl, it would be great to see T.O. take on the NYC way of doing things where they have Manhattan and then downtowns in area cities like Newark, and Jersey City taking up positions as second business centres

Jersey City is 10 minutes from Manhattan, Newark is about 20 minutes

your 905 suburban belt hate makes no sense

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Jersey City is 10 minutes from Manhattan, Newark is about 20 minutes

your 905 suburban belt hate makes no sense

Jersey City and Newark are real cities that developed on their own, and have real downtowns and history. They where not suburbs like Mississauga that came into being as bedroom communities to the main city, and then decided they had to try to pretend they where not part of the main city and build a downtown thats just a mall.

Big difference between Jersey City and Mississauga or Markham.

I will have issues with the 905 if I want(I like the old parts of 905 like downtown Burlington) The 905 has done nothing to add to the vibrancy of Toronto or to help built a great urban region. Instead it has added traffic congestion, eaten business away from downtown Toronto, and a list of other issues I will not get into on this thread.

So yes I would push for development to go to downtown Hamilton or Toronto over the 905 suburbs anyday. The suburbs have gotten enough of the pie. Its time to focus on our cities again and revive areas like downtown Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

Mike said - "I really don't see the why you guys have an issue with encouraging more business to locate in our cities, instead of trying to recreate downtown in the suburbs(and lets just admit that plan has failed as the traffic shows)."

Sadly, southern Ontario - especially the GTA - has decided to copy Los Angeles with our growth patterns....apparently people don't mind the traffic and pollution.
We're one of the largest economic regions in the world and one of worst planned and certainly one of the dumbest.
I can forgive L.A. They had nobody go before them to show what not to do.
We have, yet still ignore it and subsidize sprawl.
i'm all for subsidizing urban revitalization. at least it's growing where we should be.

[waterloowarrior]

once again

the solution to where growth in the Greater golden horseshoe will go has already been thought up by the ON government

http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/index.html
http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/ggh_plan.htm

especially check out the urban growth centres map.. with this plan, Ontario is encouraging intensification and urban revitalization

Municipalities have to change their Official Plans to comply with this. Any decisions under the Planning Act or the Condominium Act also have to conform to this. If a municipal bylaw or Official Plan conflicts with this, the growth plan will prevail.


I went to a presentation on the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe by the MPIR for world town planning day... great stuff! They have some really nice booklets available with the types of development they are looking for. It might be on the website.

[WhipperSnapper]

not this fuckin bullshit again


1. Farming is the most subsidized industry in Southern Ontario
2. The 416 is hardly subsidizing the 905 (however those in the old city ARE subsidized the poorly planned, thoroughly suburban Scaborough)
3. Pretty much all of the commercial growth in the 905 is through intensification
4. Only a small percentage of the GTA's total productivity is financially viable in an urban, high density format

We're one of the largest economic regions in the world and one of worst planned and certainly one of the dumbest

5.miketoronto has a new contender

[raisethehammer]

yea, you're right...those farmers have it made.
We treat them like crap and keep their land values completely worthless until some suit comes along with a plan to wipe everything out and build some cardboard McMansions, then suddenly the land value skyrockets. We allow cheap, unhealthy imports from all over the world (food imports) while local farmers barely make enough to live off of.

I don't live in Toronto, so don't know all the ins and outs of the 416-905 thing....but in Hamilton (all 905) the urban city subsidizes the suburbs.
Also, in Hamilton, the agriculture industry is a $1 billion per year industry. it needs to be nurtured, not paved over and taxed to death. Let's start taxing all the McCrappers and Burger Kings, not the local Ma and Pa shops to death.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

yea, you're right...those farmers have it made.
We treat them like crap and keep their land values completely worthless until some suit comes along with a plan to wipe everything out and build some cardboard McMansions, then suddenly the land value skyrockets. We allow cheap, unhealthy imports from all over the world (food imports) while local farmers barely make enough to live off of.

The market actually determines land values for agriculutral land around the city, in anticipation for development (at least according to Sinclair). Many of the fields around the GTA are already owned by large developers or are being held by "farmers" who join together to protect their right to sell it. What "we" actually do is lessen the value of farmland by implementing greenbelts and restricting rezoning and subdividing with the PPS (the purpose of which is to prevent urban sprawl).

edit: though I agree that our farmers need more support from the government and that we shouldn't rely so much on importing food... but some of that is more related to free trade rules than to urban expansion.

Also, in Hamilton, the agriculture industry is a $1 billion per year industry. it needs to be nurtured, not paved over and taxed to death. Let's start taxing all the McCrappers and Burger Kings, not the local Ma and Pa shops to death

Most of these places are actually run by local franchisees, people from within the communities... but I guess chains are evil and non-chains are good so tax tax tax, right?. (I'm sure large Canadian corporations like cara and couche tard, and foreign MNCs will appreciate that)

[raisethehammer]

first of all, apologies to Waterloo Warrior....he's been the only one who's come on here and made any sense, but we've all just kept ignoring him/her and rambling on.... regarding Places to Grow, I like the plan, although they'll need better legislations and taxing changing to make it happen...but you're right. This is probably a good plan to work from - mostly intensification along transit/highway nodes with mixed-use development so people can live and work in the same area.

[tokie]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I don't live in Toronto, so don't know all the ins and outs of the 416-905 thing....but in Hamilton (all 905) the urban city subsidizes the suburbs.
Also, in Hamilton, the agriculture industry is a $1 billion per year industry. it needs to be nurtured, not paved over and taxed to death. Let's start taxing all the McCrappers and Burger Kings, not the local Ma and Pa shops to death.

That statement about downtown Hamilton subsidizing the 'burbs is just plain wrong. Places like Dundas and Ancaster get basically nothing from Hamilton, yet give so much in taxes... near the highest property tax rates in the country.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

plus Hamilton doesn't have enough Wendy's or Kelsey's restaurants to suit the fine dining tastes of the white collar business park worker.

No but if these businesses moved to Hamilton from Toronto you would see more of these types of restaurants open up in the downtown core.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

First of all you guys read way to much negative into my posts. I did not say we are going to tell business where to locate.

What I mean is, we should have programs or something in place to encourage business to locate in places like Hamilton.

Yeah we are skipping Mississauga City Centre on the way. But who cares. Its not a real downtown and never will be. Plus its only 20min from downtown Toronto, meaning we don't need another downtown so close.

The whole idea of building up Hamilton, is to revive the core, and provide a place for secondary business that are not going to locate in the centre of downtown Toronto.

But it still is a benefit, because atleast we are putting business into already built up urban areas, and real downtowns with connections etc.

Ontop of that, we can focus transit more if we are taking people to real downtowns, and not trying to get them to every single suburb out there.

I really don't see the why you guys have an issue with encouraging more business to locate in our cities, instead of trying to recreate downtown in the suburbs(and lets just admit that plan has failed as the traffic shows).

We should promote the real urban centres we have. And I think Hamilton would be an amazing place to encourage business development in the core.

After that is done, then work on Oshawa.

For a forum with people who care about cities I really do find it interesting how many of you support the growth of our suburbs instead of promoting our existing downtowns.

I could see something like this working maybe if Hamlton were to join up with Toronto and be a part of their city which has been brought up before HOWEVER, you would have a very hard time of encouraging Hamiltonians to join up with Metro Toronto....that's usually followed up by the OSKEE WEE WEE, OSKIE WAH WAH Hamilton Tiger-Cats fight song.

[roch5220]

Wow, what a way to ENHANCE the problem. GTA has sprawl problems. Why not encourage more business to locate in Hamilton, which will create more sprawl issues around Hamilton. Next, lets do it around Oshawa to complete the problem. You never thought that this solution would just add more sprawl?

By encouraging even more business to locate in Toronto, especially downtown, is allows construction of rapid transit lines more cost effective. Instead, your going to make more cost prohibited to provide rapid transit lines as instead of focusing on one core and bringing everybody in, you have a split 2 cores and you'll have even more land taken up even more around hamilton from new subdivisions.