PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by allovertown

They don't care about these fans. They know plenty will suck it up and deal with it but they also know how many people in the city are interested in sixers tickets.

The sixers have had a season ticket" waiting list " called Club 76 the past few years that has been total bullshit. They artificially inflated season ticket numbers and then ran a big email campaign to convince people that if you were considering getting season tickets at any point in the next decade, you needed to get on the list.

It was nothing more than a data collection campaign. They're confident they can lose suburban fans and not miss them.

Sixers should partner with SEPTA where if fans buy tickets they can link their Key account and get credits for free transportation to the game. Just tack on some dollar amount to the ticket price and give that money to SEPTA if a fan takes transit. That's something I would consider at least if they were moving to somewhere accessible to regional rail but not easily accessible by car.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by allovertown

They don't care about these fans. They know plenty will suck it up and deal with it but they also know how many people in the city are interested in sixers tickets.

The sixers have had a season ticket" waiting list " called Club 76 the past few years that has been total bullshit. They artificially inflated season ticket numbers and then ran a big email campaign to convince people that if you were considering getting season tickets at any point in the next decade, you needed to get on the list.

It was nothing more than a data collection campaign. They're confident they can lose suburban fans and not miss them.

I'm not so sure that was completely made up. Season ticket sales were strong there for a bit. but they've lost A LOT of season ticket holders during the pandemic. They were way more flexible with making adjustments to my package this season than they have at basically any other point. Maybe they're betting that the demand will return when people feel safe (who's to say when that is?), but their short term hubris may take a hit in the current climate. Hoping that pushes them towards an alternative in the Sports Complex or as part of 30th Street plan.

[Knight Hospitaller]

I hadn’t thought about a Hahnemann demolition. That could work. I still like my idea of “Franklin Square Garden.“ That would only require demolishing the Roundhouse and a daycare center, and relocating a federal reserve bank outbuilding. The rest is parking. The African-American history Museum could be incorporated, but I thought I read elsewhere that they wish to relocate. A site bounded by 7th, 8th, Race, and Arch would only be a block or two away from eighth and market. It would also have (poor) highway access. There’s already a trailer lot at eighth and Callowhill that could be turned into a parking structure if thought necessary. It’s an unappealing little lot abutting the 676 overpass. The PPA Strawbridge‘s garage is already on the opposite side of the site.

[DudeGuy]

Originally Posted by Vince_

Yep. There is a certain attitude in Philly that because it's been done one way forever, it should continue that way. There are a bunch of cities including DC, LA, NYC, Milwaukee etc. that all have downtown arenas. DC's Capitol One Arena should be the main example of what Philly's new arena could and should can be. There's a subway stop, bars/restaurants everywhere, a movie theater, a mall etc...it's almost exactly what 8th and Market offers. Also everyone gets hung up on it being Sixers games. They'll have concerts 3 nights a week at least along with Villanova games and likely more neutral events like Penn State basketball.

Just look around on street view and see how cool their setup is: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8987...7i16384!8i8192

Yeah, I used to live in DC and went to many Wizards / Capitals games. I think that's why I'm so onboard with a downtown stadium in Philly.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I hadn’t thought about a Hahnemann demolition. That could work. I still like my idea of “Franklin Square Garden.“ That would only require demolishing the Roundhouse and a daycare center, and relocating a federal reserve bank outbuilding. The rest is parking. The African-American history Museum could be incorporated, but I thought I read elsewhere that they wish to relocate. A site bounded by 7th, 8th, Race, and Arch would only be a block or two away from eighth and market. It would also have (poor) highway access. There’s already a trailer lot at eighth and Callowhill that could be turned into a parking structure if thought necessary. It’s an unappealing little lot abutting the 676 overpass. The PPA Strawbridge‘s garage is already on the opposite side of the site.

8th and Race? I can dig it at the location your describing. I think it could work there. Roundhouse, federal reserve outbuilding, a small handsome building would likely need to be demolished, but that's FAR better than demolishing what's left of the Gimbel's building.

Could the entire stadium fit between Race Street and Appletree Street, so two highrises can be built fronting Arch Street? The Sixer's could also buy Temple's Podiatry School and redevelop that land, which needs to be demolished and this school needs to move back up to the Temple Med center in a new building there. Furthermore, they could buy or partner with Pennrose for the giant lot at 8th and Race, and work together on that development and add on to that planned development.

Broad and Vine could be an option too by demolishing Hahnemann. The entire stadium should fit between Vine and Race, Broad and 15th. They could then cap over 76 in one, two or 3 spots, could develop the large parking lot at 15th and Race, incorporate the two pad sites on either side of the Gateway parking garage at 15th and Spring for 2 new towers there, redevelop the block Hahnemann/Drexel owns north of the expressway bounded by Vine, Wood, Broad and 15th, redevelop the expressway on/off ramps, AND there's plenty of land on to the East of Broad for development as well.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by summersm343

8th and Race? I can dig it at the location your describing. I think it could work there. Roundhouse, federal reserve outbuilding, a small handsome building would likely need to be demolished, but that's FAR better than demolishing what's left of the Gimbel's building.

Could the entire stadium fit between Race Street and Appletree Street, so two highrises can be built fronting Arch Street? The Sixer's could also buy Temple's Podiatry School and redevelop that land, which needs to be demolished and this school needs to move back up to the Temple Med center in a new building there. Furthermore, they could buy or partner with Pennrose for the giant lot at 8th and Race, and work together on that development and add on to that planned development.

Broad and Vine could be an option too by demolishing Hahnemann. The entire stadium should fit between Vine and Race, Broad and 15th. They could then cap over 76 in one, two or 3 spots, could develop the large parking lot at 15th and Race, incorporate the two pad sites on either side of the Gateway parking garage at 15th and Spring for 2 new towers there, redevelop the block Hahnemann/Drexel owns north of the expressway bounded by Vine, Wood, Broad and 15th, redevelop the expressway on/off ramps, AND there's plenty of land on to the East of Broad for development as well.

For the best location, the Gimbels building can go. This is not a Toll Brothers condominium tower...it's a development that could completely transform a pocket of the city.

Race, even though just 2 blocks north, is far enough away that it won't have the same effect. In short, there isn't nearly as much potential to activate the surrounding area at 8th & Race as there is as 8th&Market.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

People on Reddit/Facebook/Twitter are getting so pissy about the proposals. I think it's because a lot of fans currently drive to the stadiums and are only thinking about an urban arena with that mindset.

"Driving and parking into Center City would be a nightmare!", etc.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'm not so sure that was completely made up. Season ticket sales were strong there for a bit. but they've lost A LOT of season ticket holders during the pandemic. They were way more flexible with making adjustments to my package this season than they have at basically any other point. Maybe they're betting that the demand will return when people feel safe (who's to say when that is?), but their short term hubris may take a hit in the current climate. Hoping that pushes them towards an alternative in the Sports Complex or as part of 30th Street plan.

It was not COMPLETELY made up. But i can tell you with certainty that its primary purpose was data collection.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by Vince_

Yep. There is a certain attitude in Philly that because it's been done one way forever, it should continue that way. There are a bunch of cities including DC, LA, NYC, Milwaukee etc. that all have downtown arenas. DC's Capitol One Arena should be the main example of what Philly's new arena could and should can be. There's a subway stop, bars/restaurants everywhere, a movie theater, a mall etc...it's almost exactly what 8th and Market offers. Also everyone gets hung up on it being Sixers games. They'll have concerts 3 nights a week at least along with Villanova games and likely more neutral events like Penn State basketball.

Just look around on street view and see how cool their setup is: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8987...7i16384!8i8192

When I was in DC last weekend, my girlfriend and I were walking with a friend (who's from DC) about a block or two from the Capitol One Arena. The friend points down the street at one point and goes "and there's DC's hockey and basketball arena" (or something like that) and my girlfriend looks, pauses for a second, and goes "...where?" Point of this anecdote being, it blends into the urban fabric nicely.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Vince_

Yep. There is a certain attitude in Philly that because it's been done one way forever, it should continue that way. There are a bunch of cities including DC, LA, NYC, Milwaukee etc. that all have downtown arenas. DC's Capitol One Arena should be the main example of what Philly's new arena could and should can be. There's a subway stop, bars/restaurants everywhere, a movie theater, a mall etc...

And Boston and Toronto and Houston and Dallas and San Francisco and Brooklyn and Minneapolis and Seattle and NoLa... it turns out placing an NBA arena in a sea of cement totally cut off and isolated from the city isn't that great.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I hadn’t thought about a Hahnemann demolition. That could work. I still like my idea of “Franklin Square Garden.“ That would only require demolishing the Roundhouse and a daycare center, and relocating a federal reserve bank outbuilding. The rest is parking. The African-American history Museum could be incorporated, but I thought I read elsewhere that they wish to relocate. A site bounded by 7th, 8th, Race, and Arch would only be a block or two away from eighth and market. It would also have (poor) highway access. There’s already a trailer lot at eighth and Callowhill that could be turned into a parking structure if thought necessary. It’s an unappealing little lot abutting the 676 overpass. The PPA Strawbridge‘s garage is already on the opposite side of the site.

Not bad - especially if Demo is on the table. Definitely appreciate the branding effort - Franklin Square Garden has a great ring to it.

[chris08876]

Not in Philly, but in Allentown PA. Does anybody know what is rising here? Spotted this as I was heading home from work. Was near Lehigh Univ Medical. Was in a rush so didn't get a chance to check it out fully.

Big big project too.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Londonee

And Boston and Toronto and Houston and Dallas and San Francisco and Brooklyn and Minneapolis and Seattle and NoLa... it turns out placing an NBA arena in a sea of cement totally cut off and isolated from the city isn't that great.

I'll give you TD Garden in Boston, because that's similar to 8th and Market. If the Sixers build a stadium like that, topped by 2 towers, I think we'll all be happy.

Chase Center in San Francisco was built in Mission Bay though, which is an entire new construction area way south of Downtown San Fran. This would be more similar to what I would want for Philadelphia. Why can't Philadelphia think bigger? Why do we consistently try to keep relocating everything in Center City, instead of expanding the city, and building up more areas outside of Center City and University City? Imagine an all new development down by the stadiums. Imagine all or almost every parking lot filled with mid-rise and high-rise mixed-use apartment buildings, office buildings, hotels, all with ground floor retail for new shops, restaurants, entertainment centers, a new park or two, a new museum or two (Philly sports museum? Relocate African American Museum here? Philly Wax museum?) etc. etc. All parking needs can easily be accommodated by parking garages. Why not??? Why can't we think bigger?? Why can't we build up this area like Boston did with the Seaport District, San Francisco did with Mission Bay, and Washington DC did with the Navy Yard.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Not in Philly, but in Allentown PA. Does anybody know what is rising here? Spotted this as I was heading home from work. Was near Lehigh Univ Medical. Was in a rush so didn't get a chance to check it out fully.

Big big project too.

Probably new Air Products HQ

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Not in Philly, but in Allentown PA. Does anybody know what is rising here? Spotted this as I was heading home from work. Was near Lehigh Univ Medical. Was in a rush so didn't get a chance to check it out fully.

Big big project too.

No clue! Don't follow development up in the Lehigh Valley since it's TECHNICALLY not part of the Philadelphia area LOL

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I'll give you TD Garden in Boston, because that's similar to 8th and Market. If the Sixers build a stadium like that, topped by 2 towers, I think we'll all be happy.

Chase Center in San Francisco was built in Mission Bay though, which is an entire new construction area way south of Downtown San Fran. This would be more similar to what I would want for Philadelphia. Why can't Philadelphia think bigger? Why do we consistently try to keep relocating everything in Center City, instead of expanding the city, and building up more areas outside of Center City and University City? Imagine an all new development down by the stadiums. Imagine all or almost every parking lot filled with mid-rise and high-rise mixed-use apartment buildings, office buildings, hotels, all with ground floor retail for new shops, restaurants, entertainment centers, a new park or two, a new museum or two (Philly sports museum? Relocate African American Museum here? Philly Wax museum?) etc. etc. All parking needs can easily be accommodated by parking garages. Why not??? Why can't we think bigger?? Why can't we build up this area like Boston did with the Seaport District, San Francisco did with Mission Bay, and Washington DC did with the Navy Yard.

Why can't we think bigger? We're not doing the thinking. Josh Harris is and he's not interested in building an arena in the sports complex, mostly because there's already a perfectly good arena there. The whims of one billionaire are not an indictment of Philadelphia's ambitions.

Also the sixers leaving for center city seems entirely irrelevant to your plans for the stadium complex. Wouldn't redeveloping the stadium complex AND building a downtown arena be thinking even BIGGER?

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Why can't we think bigger? We're not doing the thinking. Josh Harris is and he's not interested in building an arena in the sports complex, mostly because there's already a perfectly good arena there. The whims of one billionaire are not an indictment of Philadelphia's ambitions.

Also the sixers leaving for center city seems entirely irrelevant to your plans for the stadium complex. Wouldn't redeveloping the stadium complex AND building a downtown arena be thinking even BIGGER?

Ha! Good point. Fine, if the Sixers build something similar to TD Bank at 8th and Market, with two towers topping the arena fronting Market Street, I'll be happy.

You're right - can still easily build a new neighborhood and entertainment district down by the stadiums as well, with 3 teams still playing there. Why not?

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I'll give you TD Garden in Boston, because that's similar to 8th and Market. If the Sixers build a stadium like that, topped by 2 towers, I think we'll all be happy.

Chase Center in San Francisco was built in Mission Bay though, which is an entire new construction area way south of Downtown San Fran. This would be more similar to what I would want for Philadelphia. Why can't Philadelphia think bigger? Why do we consistently try to keep relocating everything in Center City, instead of expanding the city, and building up more areas outside of Center City and University City?

This is why I think the North Station district would be cool. It could help revitalize the neighborhood, and it's connected to regional rail and the subway

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I'll give you TD Garden in Boston, because that's similar to 8th and Market. If the Sixers build a stadium like that, topped by 2 towers, I think we'll all be happy.

Chase Center in San Francisco was built in Mission Bay though, which is an entire new construction area way south of Downtown San Fran. This would be more similar to what I would want for Philadelphia. Why can't Philadelphia think bigger? Why do we consistently try to keep relocating everything in Center City, instead of expanding the city, and building up more areas outside of Center City and University City? Imagine an all new development down by the stadiums. Imagine all or almost every parking lot filled with mid-rise and high-rise mixed-use apartment buildings, office buildings, hotels, all with ground floor retail for new shops, restaurants, entertainment centers, a new park or two, a new museum or two (Philly sports museum? Relocate African American Museum here? Philly Wax museum?) etc. etc. All parking needs can easily be accommodated by parking garages. Why not??? Why can't we think bigger?? Why can't we build up this area like Boston did with the Seaport District, San Francisco did with Mission Bay, and Washington DC did with the Navy Yard.

You've been on here for over 10 years now and your bullishness on the stadium complex is noble and noted. But...

It's not going to happen the way you envision, not in our life time at least, and frankly - why would we want it to? Are you envisioning something like the Battery in Atlanta? That weird faux nonsense? it's never going to organically feel like a part of South Philly, period. We can't develop 8th and Market, or Penn's Landing. Or, really, Market East. Or the centrally located rail yards, let alone this hellish landscape of doom. I feel like I'm explaining to my young son that Santa isn't real, but he's not, and "all the new development down by the stadiums" is just undesirable nonsense.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

This is why I think the North Station district would be cool. It could help revitalize the neighborhood, and it's connected to regional rail and the subway

From a strictly city planning standpoint I agree it could be a solid location. Not exactly easy to get to by car, but pretty well served by public transit.

But again, Josh Harris isn't looking to revitalize a neighborhood, and he wants a downtown arena. I don't know what it would take to convince him to build a new arena all the way up in north Philly, but i know it would involve a ton of public financing and for me that's a non starter. If we're looking to revitalize North Philly, there's no way that publicly funding a billionaire's arena is the most efficient way to do so.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by summersm343

No clue! Don't follow development up in the Lehigh Valley since it's TECHNICALLY not part of the Philadelphia area LOL

In the name of his most Catholic majesty, Emperor of all the Philadelphias and King of Delco, I claim Allentown and environs for the Crown in defiance of the spurious claims of the OMB.