New casino?

[coalminecanary]

The failing border town casinos (including Windsor) are the main catalysts for this whole OLG plan. Have you read the OLG strategic review? Border casino revenues dropped from 800 million to 100 million over 10 years.

The OLG is turning a winning concept (border casinos that bring US money into Canada) into a losing one (paying US companies to operate Ontario casinos that take more money from Ontarians)

This isn't about social impacts as much as it is about basic economics.

The winners in a Hamilton casino will be: 1. OLG 2. Private operator 3. The hotelier who joins the bid. The occasional person who hits a jackpot.

This money has to come from somewhere. The losers will be: everyone else in the city.

[markbarbera]

The number you tend to forget to mention is the payroll for the employees.

At Windsor casino - which continues to perform well - they have 3000 full and part time employees with an annual payroll of $125 million.

[movingtohamilton]

Rockhammer is in the game. Invitation-only press conference.

http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/stor...ouncement.html

[durandy]

Coalmine, I don't really understand your point. The fact that profits will go to US operators seems to me a basic feature of economics - of the same entertainment dollars people spend at Cineplex Odeon, Montanas, etc, a portion goes to salaries and a portion to infrastructure and a portion to the shareholders and corporation wherever located. I'm also skeptical of why a US operator has to be involved, but it's a bit late to be arguing NAFTA. You seem fixated on the idea that these are dollars 'leaving' the city, but in reality this is about the allocation of entertainment dollars, which I think are leaving the city anyway, whether into Bermuda vacations, theatre shows, movies, or whatever.

[LikeHamilton]

!

[mattgrande]

Originally Posted by flar

My personal snobbish objections aside, I think if it's done right, a casino could be a major boon to downtown Hamilton. By done right, I mean I hope it's not an inward facing, self-contained entity. It will create a lot of jobs, jobs that a lot of the "idle young men" in Hamilton could do.

Casinos are, in all practicalities, inward facing, self-contained entities. They're designed to keep people inside and gambling. If people want to go shopping, they go shopping at the casino. If they want to eat, they eat at the casino.

They're 100% designed to keep people (and money) inside.

[SteelTown]

For the Hard Rock proposal the casino accounts 15% of the entire project.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by mattgrande

Casinos are, in all practicalities, inward facing, self-contained entities. They're designed to keep people inside and gambling. If people want to go shopping, they go shopping at the casino. If they want to eat, they eat at the casino.

They're 100% designed to keep people (and money) inside.

But that same casino will provide a thousand jobs for Hamiltonians with decent wages that will be spent in this city.

[coalminecanary]

A casino will hinder real development and cost us jobs in the long run. Hamilton has low unemployment compared to other cities and we are moving forward steadily. Yes we need jobs, but what we need more than a short term band-aid is to attract more residents and more employers. A casino will not achieve this.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Anyone with a gambling addiction can still go to Niagara, Brantford, Windsor, Niagara, NY, Orilla, Flamboro, etc. Even more convenient is the shuttle buses from downtown.

But that takes some effort and planning and extra time and even granted the shuttles, makes it harder for those without wheels. Also with somewhere local more gambling addictions will start.

[ihateittoo]

Like any proposed development in Hamilton it always sounds better than the reality. This HammerRock group has complete control if they win the proposal. They will have the set out guidelines that the city gives them, but look how that worked out with the stadium! and that was almost completely public money!

I am on the fence, towards the NO side for downtown. I just find it difficult to want to work with someone who says something like this to the press (In reference to those who oppose the downtown casino):

“Who are these people? What is their background? What have they done?” said Peter Mercanti. “They get almost all the same weight as the people who really count. It shocks me.”

If you look at the list of 60 prominent Hamiltonians that the spectator published this weekend - i'd say that a lot of the these people have "done things".

I'll reserve my judgment once we see all the proposals.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by mattgrande

Casinos are, in all practicalities, inward facing, self-contained entities. They're designed to keep people inside and gambling. If people want to go shopping, they go shopping at the casino. If they want to eat, they eat at the casino.

They're 100% designed to keep people (and money) inside.

This is not the case in Windsor, where the businesses east of the casino are a thriving restaurant and nightclub district. There is very little shopping inside Caesar's Windsor - just one shop with casino-related souvenir merchandise.

[drpgq]

Anyone can say they will create 1000 jobs, but it actually happening and being sustained is another. How many jobs have been lost in Niagara Falls and Windsor since the heyday of cross-border gamblers?

Also with regards to Niagara Falls, aren't a lot of the table dealers actually commuting in from the GTA?

[flar]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

This is not the case in Windsor, where the businesses east of the casino are a thriving restaurant and nightclub district. There is very little shopping inside Caesar's Windsor - just one shop with casino-related souvenir merchandise.

I was going to cite the Windsor example as well. Their entire waterfront has been rejuvenated by the casino.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by ihateittoo

Like any proposed development in Hamilton it always sounds better than the reality. This HammerRock group has complete control if they win the proposal. They will have the set out guidelines that the city gives them, but look how that worked out with the stadium! and that was almost completely public money!

I am on the fence, towards the NO side for downtown. I just find it difficult to want to work with someone who says something like this to the press (In reference to those who oppose the downtown casino):

“Who are these people? What is their background? What have they done?” said Peter Mercanti. “They get almost all the same weight as the people who really count. It shocks me.”

If you look at the list of 60 prominent Hamiltonians that the spectator published this weekend - i'd say that a lot of the these people have "done things".

I'll reserve my judgment once we see all the proposals.

The city really has no say over what the casino will look like or how it will operate. OLG decides who builds it. All the city is being asked to do is say yes or no to a casino downtown. Everything else is left up to the OLG and whoever they chose to build and operate it.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by drpgq

Anyone can say they will create 1000 jobs, but it actually happening and being sustained is another. How many jobs have been lost in Niagara Falls and Windsor since the heyday of cross-border gamblers?

Also with regards to Niagara Falls, aren't a lot of the table dealers actually commuting in from the GTA?

It doesn't really matter, this is a private development. If they lose then it's on them not the taxpayer. As far as the jobs it's like any business there are always good times and bad times.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

A casino will hinder real development and cost us jobs in the long run. Hamilton has low unemployment compared to other cities and we are moving forward steadily. Yes we need jobs, but what we need more than a short term band-aid is to attract more residents and more employers. A casino will not achieve this.

A casino is an employer that will attract people to this city to work there.

[durandy]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

There is a percentage that is set aside for treatment of gambling addiction. It's part of the legislation allowing for casino's. If you go to a casino there are signs and literature in the lobbies and even the restrooms. They support a gambling addiction hotline that can be called.

Here's the link:http://www.knowyourlimit.ca/

I read the 2011-12 report. It's pretty good but I'd like to see more institutional changes and less education for players - you can't educate an addict not to be one. Things like: no ATMs on site, tighter spending limits, training for staff to identify and maybe even bar people displaying warning signs from playing.

Otherwise all we're building is a revolving door of extra govt funding but also extra liabilities.

[coalminecanary]

What is it about the casino that has you guys excited? Any "benefits" that have been stated have been sourced from those who stand to make money off of the deal.

If I stood up tomorrow and said I was going to buy the Right House and turn it into condos and generate 1000 jobs and save the city, would you support me? Hopefully not, because it's probably not going to happen. It's the same with Blanchard. It's the same with the Connaught group. And it's the same with the Casino. The Mercanti pitch means NOTHING when we haven't even decided if we want a casino. And if we do make that mistake, there is no way for them to be held to their pitch. Our only power here is "yes" or "no".

If you only listen to the salesmen, you are going to get sold to - hard.

Show me evidence of Windsor's success. From what I have read, there was a wave of success for a period of years when the money was pouring in from the U.S., and now that is all gone.

Show me spinoff in Brantford.

Show me how much money leaves our local economy because of people going to the movies.

Show me numbers. I'm tired of arguing facts against sales pitches.

[mattgrande]

Speaking of ATMs, I was listening to Y108 and the morning show woman (Shawna?) was saying she went to Flamboro Downs, and the ATMs there only give out $50s. This really surprised me.