Tucson Development Thread

[Azstar]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

I am not up to speed on this project. Will the winner have the capacity to fund the project? I am worried that we will pick a winning proposal and then the property will sit for a decade as the winning company files for, and is denied, multiple federal programs (a la Gadsen). I am hoping the bidding companies (Peach is questionable) will have funding lined up so that construction can begin soon.

I have to agree with this statement. I hope I'm wrong, but based on the other failed development fiascos I don't see anything positive coming out of this. The local developers have few resources or money to develop any large scale projects. Does anyone think Alan Norville's $100 million project is going to move forward? I doubt it. If a large scale out of town developer gets involved, the pathetically incompetent City Council will interfere and demand that 50% of the project be devoted to housing the homeless, or something like that, and the developer will not walk but run to get out of town. Then, dozens of special interest groups will claim the property is too tall, too short, too wide, too narrow, not historic enough, too big, too small, you name it. Most likely scenario is that the properties (Gadsden, Thrifty Block, ad nauseum) will languish for years, if not decades, as the City Council grants extension after extension after extension and 20 years later nothing materializes. Good luck with the Ronstadt property.

[southtucsonboy77]

Originally Posted by Azstar

I have to agree with this statement. I hope I'm wrong, but based on the other failed development fiascos I don't see anything positive coming out of this. The local developers have few resources or money to develop any large scale projects. Does anyone think Alan Norville's $100 million project is going to move forward? I doubt it. If a large scale out of town developer gets involved, the pathetically incompetent City Council will interfere and demand that 50% of the project be devoted to housing the homeless, or something like that, and the developer will not walk but run to get out of town. Then, dozens of special interest groups will claim the property is too tall, too short, too wide, too narrow, not historic enough, too big, too small, you name it. Most likely scenario is that the properties (Gadsden, Thrifty Block, ad nauseum) will languish for years, if not decades, as the City Council grants extension after extension after extension and 20 years later nothing materializes. Good luck with the Ronstadt property.

I'm not invested on the property and don't have all the economic factors for why it is the way it is, but what's up with Peach's dirt lot on Broadway? Maybe on a smaller scale they can rebut my statement...shoot, they could have a large scale example...but I have this perception about Peach Properties that they seem to pursue gov't assisted/gov't owned/gov't partnership developments. As an out-right owner of a key downtown parcel I would expect this private developer to at least build a large-scale private development...and mix up the portfolio with some gov't partnerships. Maybe in Portland, or wherever they are originally from...they have a large private development. Here in Tucson...?? That vacant lot speaks volumes to me...as did Norville's empty lot for all these years. I remember one day reading an article that Unisource was gonna build a new HQ on the old Santa Rita Hotel site. Almost 2 years later it was built. No gov't involvement. Privately developed. This Ronstadt site is huge...a big deal.

Other than that, I can't wait to see the presentations! Lol.

[andrewsaturn]

Originally Posted by Azstar

I have to agree with this statement. I hope I'm wrong, but based on the other failed development fiascos I don't see anything positive coming out of this. The local developers have few resources or money to develop any large scale projects. Does anyone think Alan Norville's $100 million project is going to move forward? I doubt it. If a large scale out of town developer gets involved, the pathetically incompetent City Council will interfere and demand that 50% of the project be devoted to housing the homeless, or something like that, and the developer will not walk but run to get out of town. Then, dozens of special interest groups will claim the property is too tall, too short, too wide, too narrow, not historic enough, too big, too small, you name it. Most likely scenario is that the properties (Gadsden, Thrifty Block, ad nauseum) will languish for years, if not decades, as the City Council grants extension after extension after extension and 20 years later nothing materializes. Good luck with the Ronstadt property.

I see what you mean and I agree. Local developers have been disappointing in past projects and that is why maybe an out of town developer will be better. Rio Nuevo did impose a hefty fine to Mr. Norville if he were not to move forward with his plan. So there is a consequence for not following through. I hope that is also the case for Ronstadt center as well. I think at this point, the leaders behind downtown development are wanting things to move forward more quickly and there is a sense of seriousness now that there wasn't before. Even for the site west of I-10, talk is if dirt doesn't start flying in a reasonable time frame, we might be looking at other prospective developers. But don't get me wrong, things still move at a slow pace here in Tucson.

[Ritarancher]

It sounds like the "towers" are just a few several stories but it sounds hopeful!
http://m.tucsonnewsnow.com/tusconnew...tguid=6BaqgKRC

[aznate27]

Here is the Wisconsin proposal:




Here is Peach Properties:



So you can have the first, a super boring out dated design , or the second, something cool modern and puts Tucson on the map.

To me, there's a clear winner.

[Thirsty]

The Wisc. design is pretty disappointing, so it will fit in seamlessly downtown! Not just the East Berlin human storage facility architecture, but a huge western facade with no recessed windows and just a few artistically placed shade structures.

The Peach is a little crazy but its really growing on me. The thing is smartly oriented for winter sun and minimizing low summer sun. Shadows cast every which-way. I wonder if the green roof and balconies will ever be put in, but I like it. It just seems so much more ambitious... for a company nobody seems to think can afford anything beyond a ceremonial shovel.

[andrewsaturn]

Disappointed with both designs. There are bits and pieces I like about both proposals. I love the roundabout for Wisc. And the simple architecture because it kind of goes with rest of downtown if we are keeping to the theme. However, it looks like another Cadence building. Peach properties has some height to it and they're getting rid of the fencing around Ronstadt. Ugly color designs maybe it will look better in person. Also liked that there was a public market with a pocket park. Really wish there was more height for such a central location but I think it will turn out to be a really busy and useful piece of downtown.

[Ritarancher]

I'm digging the Peach design. It's got potential to be a centerpiece of downtown. I love two major things about it; the fact that it opens up 6th avenue to pedestrians and that it is a reminder that the city wasn't abandoned in 1995. The Alexander company just creates a long-dead hallway devoid of character which is essentially part of what this project is supposed to fix. But unfortunately Peach's rendering is likely just a fantasy. It is the best of the choices when it comes to amenities and city benefits but I have little faith that they'll be able to fund this project. But the Alexander company turns 6th ave into a pedestrian dead zone. There are still some architectural benefits to the Alexander one (like that the elders won't riot over its design) but it's just too basic for a city so ambitious.

[farmerk]

Both designs are average. Peach has the 60's design. Wisconsin has the 'historic' blend with the rest of downtown look. I won't scream if one of them gets built. I won't be happy either. I'm hoping for a real ultra modern high rise to break with Tucson's obsession replicating the past (I didn't expect both developers have that capacity).

I think Wisconsin will win this one because Peach will never build their project or that they will compromise their design to shrink their building significantly in 20 years. Peach will just have to build that type of architecture at their Broadway project and compress it to at least 10 floors (with a pool and park on top, I like that).

On the plus side, Peach added Walgreens in their building. Wonder what retail will be included in the Wisconsin design. Urban Target? Apple Store? Starbucks? I'm moving in!

Also like the fact that both will include the Greyhound bus station. Wisconsin will have taxi/shuttle stops. I believe one of them will include a car rental component.

[southtucsonboy77]

Wow, the designs from each developer were completely opposite of who I thought was gonna give them. I love the Peach Property design and concept. I expected that from Alexander...but no no no! Oasis (Jim Campbell, the mastermind behind Cadence) looks to be the main developer, or at least a huge sub-contractor, in the Alexander proposal. The Alexander renderings have too many similarities to the Cadence project and I HOPE that is what kills their chances. Nothing positive to talk about on their proposal.

The Peach proposal is fresh, modern, and has 2 plazas. Transit accessibility is still there. The separated buildings are still mixed-used, but still have that independence of being it's own function. Most endearing to my heart, there's a proposed structure that will reach or exceed 10 stories in downtown since 1986! I'll take 12 floors...and hope it kicks off a trend towards higher "high rises". Too, the proposal doesn't offer an over-abundance of WIDE buildings. I came back from Austin earlier this month and realized Tucson has wide mid-rise buildings...where Austin is building beautiful lean and tall buildings. With all this said...I don't think that yellow is gonna fly.

Now...the next hurdles. Will the City be wise enough and select the better design? Secondly, is the better design doable financially for Peach Properties? That is what scares me.

[southtucsonboy77]

Peach Proposal
Alexander/Oasis Proposal

Enjoy!

[ArbyW]

Originally Posted by aznate27

so you can have the first, a super boring out dated design , or the second, something cool modern and puts tucson on the map.

To me, there's a clear winner.

Architecture is not like fashion, you cannot change your outfit.

You cannot predict how dated the Peach proposal will look in 20 years, but you can guess.... it has earmarks of some of the sad, post-modern schlock you see decaying around town. Very ambitious and probably un-attainable, doomed to be one of those unfinished projects.
The Alexander proposal is handsome and timeless, good proportion and scale. Some notes from the past but updated, modern construction. Preservation of one of the finest downtown landmarks, and of a scale that can be built. The transit portion is the latest, best thinking.

I would suggest adopting the plan of Peach - pushing the bounds of downtown across the tracks plus getting Greyhound sometime in the future - and building the core Alexander proposal.

[Anqrew]

Originally Posted by ArbyW

Architecture is not like fashion, you cannot change your outfit.

You cannot predict how dated the Peach proposal will look in 20 years, but you can guess.... it has earmarks of some of the sad, post-modern schlock you see decaying around town. Very ambitious and probably un-attainable, doomed to be one of those unfinished projects.
The Alexander proposal is handsome and timeless, good proportion and scale. Some notes from the past but updated, modern construction. Preservation of one of the finest downtown landmarks, and of a scale that can be built. The transit portion is the latest, best thinking.

I would suggest adopting the plan of Peach - pushing the bounds of downtown across the tracks plus getting Greyhound sometime in the future - and building the core Alexander proposal.

I agree with what you said. At first glance I'm drawn towards the height and looks of the Peach proposal. But based on what you said along with the price tag I don't think its the best choice, While the other one might be considered boring it does have longevity and the price is less than 1/3 of the other proposal. I would prefer some more height.. but i think downtown Tucson needs to fill up a lot more residential units before developers an the city really feel the need for higher density/taller developments. Lets not forget peach still has their broadway property and if they are committed to such a design they could do so on that lot. I think the city will choose the Wisconsin one.

[Ted Lyons]

Like a small minority here, I'm not obsessed with height and I think we can all agree that the financing on the Alexander/Oasis project is much more feasible, especially considering the EB5 financing of the Peach hotel project.

With that said, Oasis needs to tone down the bland cubism of their projects downtown. There has to be a middle ground between the Peach design (also cubist) and the Oasis design which, from afar, is almost impossible to distinguish from Cadence and not much different than the Caylor projects.

Is this architecture timeless? Maybe, in the way a manufactured home is. Could it be slightly improved to create a much more refined project? Definitely.

Even if the Peach proposal doesn't hold up in the mid-term, architectural styles and opinions come and go and come back again. Ten years ago, who would have thought brutalism would be in vogue again?

[The ATX]

This is a great looking project. I hope it gets built.

[Azstar]

I think the Alexander project is more realistic, more attainable and actually more in character with downtown, provided the City Council doesn't interfere and start making unreasonable demands. The Peach proposal will mobilize the "keep Tucson shitty" contingent and probably will be a huge financial challenge for a local developer.

[southtucsonboy77]

Design and renderings aside...who do guys feel has the better Site Plan? I felt the Peach Site Plan was stronger.

[crzyabe]

Originally Posted by southtucsonboy77

Design and renderings aside...who do guys feel has the better Site Plan? I felt the Peach Site Plan was stronger.

I do prefer the Peach plan's use of the site rather than the Oasis plan. However I agree that the Oasis plan is probably more reasonable and more likely to happen. Some have noted that Peach should build this concept on the land they already own on Broadway and I agree.

What confuses me about the Peach plan is the bridge over Downtown Links and UPRR. The land the bridge connects to is already slated for apartments (or so I remember). Would Peach then have to obtain that property and sell it to Greyhound?

[ArbyW]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

What confuses me about the Peach plan is the bridge over Downtown Links and UPRR. The land the bridge connects to is already slated for apartments (or so I remember). Would Peach then have to obtain that property and sell it to Greyhound?

I think the developer considering apartments on the Corbett block bailed out.

[Patrick S]

Some good news for the local economy. Tucson's economy is expected to see job increases increase from 0.5% last year, to 0.9% this year, and 1.6% next year (2016). By 2017, Tucson's economy should be growing faster than the national average.

Economists Forecasts Strong Growth