NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Sky88

If I remember correctly the properties of Vornado are those indicated in the image below and include sites 4-5-6-7-8.

That is correct.

I hope that Tishman or Durst are not part of the builders for 1-2-3 sites. On site 2 we need a 1,500-1,600 ft tall tower with 4 million sq. A symbolic tower that becomes a new landmark in the skyline.

The developer is not going to have a bearing on the size of the towers on site. Whoever the developer is will build when they can get the towers leased and financed. You want a developer that has a record of building and relationships with the players in the office market, the big tenants who will have to lease these towers.

[NYguy]

AUGUST 23, 2020


Site 2, a really depressing block...

[Zapatan]

Yea, super depressing, good thing those'll be gone someday soon.

What's the timeframe of this project? 10-20 ish years? I hope the first towers start soon, complementing Hudson Phase II nicely.

[chris08876]

Its more akin to a giant rezoning or development district. Think of it in the sense of what the Midtown East rezoning is for Midtown East.

Time will ultimately depend on the demand, but the parameters are there to go big and add the square footage when needed.

Multiple parties will be involved. Bidding for parcels and so on. But the frame work, from a zoning standpoint, and willingness to get support from the state/local folks pushing for the development district is there... which is massive. Sometimes, having the right legal approach in accordance with the zoning can do wonders. Less BS in other words.

The city, and even the state have seen the success of Hudson Yards, and this in a way seeks to capitalize on a HY style development, while syncing with the transit options in the area.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Yea, super depressing, good thing those'll be gone someday soon.

What's the timeframe of this project? 10-20 ish years? I hope the first towers start soon, complementing Hudson Phase II nicely.

The station expansion itself is expected to be operational in 8 years (according to the DEIS). That's sites 1 - 3. What rises above will be co-ordinated between the developers and the rail agencies. The overall time frame is for 16 years, though obviously that can either increase or decrease.

Originally Posted by chris08876

Its more akin to a giant rezoning or development district. Think of it in the sense of what the Midtown East rezoning is for Midtown East.

Time will ultimately depend on the demand, but the parameters are there to go big and add the square footage when needed.

The city, and even the state have seen the success of Hudson Yards, and this in a way seeks to capitalize on a HY style development, while syncing with the transit options in the area.

I think the Hudson Yards has been more successful than the City originally anticipated (it anticipated a 30-year buildout). There's one more large-scale office tower (2 msf+) to be built over there, in Related's second phase, when you take into account everything that's alread under construction. Midtown East doesn't really have any large-scale development sites, but some sites that can range between 1 and 2 msf, and that's given some consolidation of sites, which isn't guaranteed. I think the Grand Hyatt will be around 2 msf.

The Empire District will have the potential for 5 towers of over 2 msf on sites 1 - 8. To visualize it, I think of those sites as surface parking lots, which Midtown doesn't have a lot of. The lots wouldn't all get built on at the same time, but you know their days are numbered. This is what the rezoning does, as we've seen in the Hudson Yards, and now Midtown East. It could be a struggle to get the zoning in place (less so here, because it's the state). But once it is, the forces that created the Manhattan skyline and it's skyscrapers take over.

[chris08876]

Its why I'm excited for Phase II of HY, and further development along the proximity of what was originally the yards.

Its a good sign when internal competition within the city is the biggest hurdle for a development or even district. Midtown East vs Midtown West vs Downtown vs Penn District. But with that said, I see internal competition being the biggest snag per say on Empire Station but I'm sure they will offer good rates based on the sheer volume that can rise. In other words, if this only offered say 1 mil-sq ft per parcel, the margins are smaller than let's say 2 mil-sq ft. They can afford to offer lower $/sqft depending on how complex they decide to make the Class-A space.

The hospitality volume to be added will do wonders once tourists come back and the Island returns to its normal day time population (4.4 million per day in 23 sq-miles).

Seems like some city/state funding will assist to offset some of the risk in building the towers. I wonder if they will build on-spec for some parcels.

I'm optimistic with this. Its just going to be bonkers, as some mentioned, with all the potential super talls. Skyline will look sick, and in a good way.

[NYguy]

I think once the zoning is in place, it will instill more confidence in the area as a business district to business. The transit improvements will help that also. Just as the Hudson Yards was a shiny, new object, so to will the Empire Station. Just as Midtown East will allow the option for some to stay in the city's top commercial district, Empire City, like Hudson Yards will allow options for new construction for those who can't. The City comes out on top in either case.

[NYguy]

A reminder of what happens with the right zoning. It had its own setbacks, but the inevitable is more skyscrapers.



https://www.instagram.com/p/CER6Nt-MvaJ/








https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...?adppopup=true

[NYguy]

AUGUST 27, 2020


Site 6.

[chris08876]

I wonder if they will incorporate ads and LED screens with site 6. That area was always like a mini Times Square.

Some good memories in that McDonalds btw. Always some shady things going on at that McDonalds.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by chris08876

I wonder if they will incorporate ads and LED screens with site 6. That area was always like a mini Times Square.

Some good memories in that McDonalds btw. Always some shady things going on at that McDonalds.

I was thinking the same. Those advertisements bring in good revenue for the sites, and it's already allowed in the zoning. Times Square was cleaned up, and still kept the screens, so I don't see why it couldn't happen here. It adds to the sense of being in the middle of the city.

And most of the McDonald's in west midtown have shady characters, particularly late at night.

[NYguy]

AUGUST 30, 2020



New 7th Avenue entrance taking shape...



https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/marke...-gateway/38501




















A look at the south facing side of Site 2 (30th Street)...



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Site 3....



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[Sky88]

^ Well will the church be demolished? If not it means that the 6 msf will be distributed on a smaller surface and this means very very high towers.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Sky88

^ Well will the church be demolished? If not it means that the 6 msf will be distributed on a smaller surface and this means very very high towers.

The plans are for the church to be demolished. But not for the skyscapers exactly, but the expansion of Penn Station. The towers will come after. That church itself however, was there before Penn Station was built. They sold a portion of their property on the other side of the block, which was in some state of conversion into retail, but that has been frozen and will be demolished with the rest of the block.

[chris08876]

Mass models.





Credit: siniaevart

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Mass models.




Credit: siniaevart

Just to clarify, this is the old JDS proposal, not the current proposal...

[chris08876]

Ah, thanks NyGuy.

This is exciting stuff. Between this and HY Phase II, we will have a lot of cranes in this area for the next decade or too.

I'm looking forward to the spill over effect as we've seen with HY. The proxy developments in or around the area not related to these two mega developments/districts.

We'll probally get 5-6 super talls out of this. Hopefully more.

Originally Posted by NYguy

I was thinking the same. Those advertisements bring in good revenue for the sites, and it's already allowed in the zoning. Times Square was cleaned up, and still kept the screens, so I don't see why it couldn't happen here. It adds to the sense of being in the middle of the city.

And most of the McDonald's in west midtown have shady characters, particularly late at night.

Hopefully they modernize it. Some folks are against the ads or bright LED's but I think they add a unique character. Like it wouldn't be Midtown without some bright LED's. As much as a boon Times Square or mini-TS might be for regular New Yorkers, they do add a flavor to NY that the rest of the world see's and likes.

[faridnyc]

It is the best place for a birth of the first new York city megatall !!!!

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Ah, thanks NyGuy.

This is exciting stuff. Between this and HY Phase II, we will have a lot of cranes in this area for the next decade or too.

I'm looking forward to the spill over effect as we've seen with HY. The proxy developments in or around the area not related to these two mega developments/districts.

Yeah, we just have to be thankful that this is a state run process, and not a city process, where it would be tied up in the city council. The process is almost the same, those idiots don't get to hold it up though. I expect the state to move forward with expansion plans once this moves forward. As far as the condemnation goes, it may be welcome for some in the current state of affairs. There won't be many offers otherwise.

[Sky88]

This was only a proposal but the tallest tower could be on the Roosevelt Hotel site or the Grand Hyatt Hotel site.