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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 1:19 PM
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Arch+Eng Arch+Eng is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat View Post
Well color me surprised, I actually like it. I'm not sure what kind if retailer would want to be on the roof, hidden from most pedestrians, however. I'd rather have retail capacity absorbed elsewhere so that it's actually fronting the streets.
I'm thinking smaller boutique retailers that couldn't afford the neighborhood regularly.
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 2:58 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
I don't get the orientation. The tower is L shaped and the smaller portion is fronting Broad and the larger portion is fronting Carpenter. Why? Why wouldn't the tallest parts of the project face Broad and Washington? It reminds me of the tower portion of 1900 fronting Samson instead of Chestnut. It seems odd.
As br323206 pointed out upthread, the strange positioning of the tower is probably a result of maximising the sun exposure and minimizing the shadows for the "French Village" on the roof. I have to agree with New2Fishtown on the "French Village" thing. It just doesn't make sense to hide that kind of use out of the way on the roof in an urban setting. It would make so much more sense to put the small retailers at ground level to add the the street level vibrancy and hide the big box stuff out of the way above that. People who are drawn to the big box stores will be drawn to them regardless of where they are, so putting them on the 2nd floor isn't really an issue and eliminates the blank wall they would otherwise have created.

In all seriousness, what do people think about the likelihood that Bart actually follows through with this. He hasn't exactly had a terrific record of seeing things through as of late and has a lot of projects in the air right now. This is also on a scale that is much larger than anything he's taken on that I know of. Misgivings over the "French village" aside, I'd like to see this project actually come to fruition, but I'm a bit skeptical.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 3:37 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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I have to say, I'm pretty skeptical. I just don't think this part of Broad Street is ready for something this enormous without fundamental change along the axis South of South. It's just utter no-mans land.

Dranoff's 777 S. Broad Street, a few blocks north - closer to CC - currently has ZERO retail spots filled. The owner of Tashan called taking a gamble at this location a big mistake. There's just no there, there. City planning totally failed south Broad Street:

You too can live across the street from this:


A stroll further along the scenic boulevard - where you can refresh yourself with local fare:


Hang out with this guy in this beautiful, err., park:


Get your fill of prescription meds at this prized building imported from Tuscaloosa...


Enjoy More Fine Dining:


Fill up on Gas...


And get more gas...after scarfing some DD:


I feel like they need to eliminate the empty lots and strip mall aesthetic to Broad Street, replaced with reasonable scale buildings from South to Christian, before attempting to build this thing all the way down at Washington Avenue. If Dranoff can't fill a single retail space in a more desirable location 3 blocks away, how is this gonna work?
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 3:45 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
As br323206 pointed out upthread, the strange positioning of the tower is probably a result of maximising the sun exposure and minimizing the shadows for the "French Village" on the roof. I have to agree with New2Fishtown on the "French Village" thing. It just doesn't make sense to hide that kind of use out of the way on the roof in an urban setting. It would make so much more sense to put the small retailers at ground level to add the the street level vibrancy and hide the big box stuff out of the way above that. People who are drawn to the big box stores will be drawn to them regardless of where they are, so putting them on the 2nd floor isn't really an issue and eliminates the blank wall they would otherwise have created.

In all seriousness, what do people think about the likelihood that Bart actually follows through with this. He hasn't exactly had a terrific record of seeing things through as of late and has a lot of projects in the air right now. This is also on a scale that is much larger than anything he's taken on that I know of. Misgivings over the "French village" aside, I'd like to see this project actually come to fruition, but I'm a bit skeptical.
yes me this would need some engagement on the Broad/Wash corner. Maybe a few stores with a path to a escalator leading into the additional retail. Even said the amount of retail is very large there, is there truly this level of demand there.

Oddly I actually sat next to two real estate developers for Wegmans at a bar at Boston Logan back in December. We discussed this lot that they said they actually looked at but felt the location wasn't ready yet. they claimed the union issue or city was not the issue and after a lengthy (20 minutes) discussion and conversations around the other lot (West side of Broad) and rumors of toll development they said they were going to re-evaluate as Philly is on their list for city locations but not a must have according to them. Who knows on that front

though to me I feel like this would need better access and engagement to that corner to work and still seems like a lot of pads on the roof to me
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 3:47 PM
Flyers2001 Flyers2001 is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
I don't get the orientation. The tower is L shaped and the smaller portion is fronting Broad and the larger portion is fronting Carpenter. Why? Why wouldn't the tallest parts of the project face Broad and Washington? It reminds me of the tower portion of 1900 fronting Samson instead of Chestnut. It seems odd.

Here's the thing. This is a girthy building. If the NIMBYs make it shorter (and is this something Blatstein is anticipating?), I'm afraid of what this will look like.

Of course 400 feet is perfectly appropriate to everyone here for Broad Street especially near a subway stop. But the NIMBYs will flip.
The Nimby's already did their flipping. That why there is one tower instead of two.

I like what Bart is doing here. He is basically setting Nimby's up, "Well if I can't have two smaller towers, I'll have one larger one."

I think Bart knows there is a middle ground, he is setting his standards high and forcing them to budge.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 3:51 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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@Londonee

I see all your points but two thoughts

1 - This I a lot different than Dranoff retail which is small and he historically has had issues filling his units (alos very high priced). And this is almost a destination in and of itself and as such could be a draw itself and not just retail infill.

2 0 While I agree there is so much crap from South to Washington this would anchor an end and other lots could fill (Rumors on toll across the street) and other lots could redevelop. Heck Mcds and the other and DD could all relocate into something more urban and les drive thru while having modest development

There is not reason why South to Wash on Broad cant develop rather quickly and be a draw


also Washington both west and East of here could develop and have large parcels to do so if demand comes


I think we need a (dedicated) busway (bikeway/road diet) on Washington that can connect to U City, Pennovation etc. also could stimulate TOD along Washington, potentially connected with De Ave and terminating at the MFL on the other end and the Spruce trolley hub in UCity
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
I have to say, I'm pretty skeptical. I just don't think this part of Broad Street is ready for something this enormous without fundamental change along the axis South of South. It's just utter no-mans land.

Dranoff's 777 S. Broad Street, a few blocks north - closer to CC - currently has ZERO retail spots filled. The owner of Tashan called taking a gamble at this location a big mistake. There's just no there, there. City planning totally failed south Broad Street:

I feel like they need to eliminate the empty lots and strip mall aesthetic to Broad Street, replaced with reasonable scale buildings from South to Christian, before attempting to build this thing all the way down at Washington Avenue. If Dranoff can't fill a single retail space in a more desirable location 3 blocks away, how is this gonna work?
Dranoff is just one building with a few retail spots. This project could be a destination where people will travel to to dine, shop and drink.

People told Blatstein he was out of his mind when he built the Piazza, and that has become not only a destination, but an anchor for the redevelopment of Northern Liberties.

Broad and Washington is already surrounding by nice neighborhoods on all side, and even though this stretch of Broad needs work, this could be the project to set that off. Plus, there is a new development proposed across the street from this as well. There is also new development happening a few blocks South.

Broad between Center City and Washington Ave is about to explode. It would be silly not to build something there now, just because the stretch needs work.
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 5:08 PM
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DELETED (I saw the answer to my question)

Last edited by McBane; Feb 18, 2016 at 6:49 PM.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 6:11 PM
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Blatstein seems to have a thing for retail that doesn't have actual street frontage.

Retail without street frontage is rarely successful. I've seen this idea trotted out many times since the 70s.

The Piazza may be some sort of destination, but the shops have had high turnover / vacancies. And Liberties Walk is just sad at this point.
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 6:52 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
If Dranoff can't fill a single retail space in a more desirable location 3 blocks away, how is this gonna work?
This project, if built, would create a critical mass. It's like opening up a big box shopping center in an area that lacks retail. People will come if there's a concentrated area of significant retail. Totally different than a single storefront.
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 7:57 PM
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Originally Posted by blart View Post
Blatstein seems to have a thing for retail that doesn't have actual street frontage.

Retail without street frontage is rarely successful. I've seen this idea trotted out many times since the 70s.

The Piazza may be some sort of destination, but the shops have had high turnover / vacancies. And Liberties Walk is just sad at this point.
Yes and no. Liberties Walk was doomed to fail from the beginning, but the restaurants and bars are always popping there every time I'm around.

This is a bit different. If they could get some brand name retailers with a nice mix of bars/restaurants, this could be very popular. It's also on Broad Street which is a major thoroughfare and would certainly garner a lot of traffic from the stadiums, etc.

I think this has the potential to be successful. Piazza is a little more off the beaten path so to speak. It's a little out of the way compared to this location.
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:26 PM
JawKneeQuest JawKneeQuest is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
I have to say, I'm pretty skeptical. I just don't think this part of Broad Street is ready for something this enormous without fundamental change along the axis South of South. It's just utter no-mans land.

Dranoff's 777 S. Broad Street, a few blocks north - closer to CC - currently has ZERO retail spots filled. The owner of Tashan called taking a gamble at this location a big mistake. There's just no there, there. City planning totally failed south Broad Street:

I feel like they need to eliminate the empty lots and strip mall aesthetic to Broad Street, replaced with reasonable scale buildings from South to Christian, before attempting to build this thing all the way down at Washington Avenue. If Dranoff can't fill a single retail space in a more desirable location 3 blocks away, how is this gonna work?
Don't forget further up as well. Juniper Commons on Broad and South failed in under a year.
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:49 PM
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To be fair, the location had nothing to do with Juniper Commons failing. Craig LeBan review it and said it was just an a bad restaurant.
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:24 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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Originally Posted by JawKneeQuest View Post
Don't forget further up as well. Juniper Commons on Broad and South failed in under a year.
Again, these one-off storefronts exist as an island along a desolate stretch of South Broad Street intermixed with parking lots, drive thrus, etc. There's no there there as Londonee rightfully said.

BUT, Blatstein's project will create a there. It's big enough on its own to be a draw and pull people in. It's a completely different dynamic.
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:34 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
BUT, Blatstein's project will create a there. It's big enough on its own to be a draw and pull people in. It's a completely different dynamic.
Right, but that's only if it succeeds. A big if. If nothing changes on that stretch of Broad St - there's a decent chance this thing turns into a huge white elephant - vacant retail and difficulty filling 1000 apartments...

It's too much Icarus at this point for this stretch. The city really should actively get involved in the derelict and under-utilized properties down here.

The massive DNC contingent will all be coasting past this glorious stretch from their CC hotels down to the WF Center. it's an embarrassment for the region to have our famed Broad Street be so decrepit - I wonder if the city has interest in doing anything here?
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:35 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Parkway View Post
To be fair, the location had nothing to do with Juniper Commons failing. Craig LeBan review it and said it was just an a bad restaurant.
Yes the menu just didn't cut it

the place on 13th and Locust does the same far better
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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:38 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Right, but that's only if it succeeds. A big if. If nothing changes on that stretch of Broad St - there's a decent chance this thing turns into a huge white elephant - vacant retail and difficulty filling 1000 apartments...

It's too much Icarus at this point for this stretch. The city really should actively get involved in the derelict and under-utilized properties down here.

The massive DNC contingent will all be coasting past this glorious stretch from their CC hotels down to the WF Center. it's an embarrassment for the region to have our famed Broad Street be so decrepit - I wonder if the city has interest in doing anything here?
Doing what exactly? Its not like these are city owned lots. If they are privately owned and the taxes are paid I'm not sure what the City can or should do. Over time the value of the land is going to force change on this stretch. The city can't condemn these properties just to flip them to developers. If there is money to be made developing this stretch private entities should be buying up these parcels and replacing the retail/fast food joints that exist.
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:40 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Right, but that's only if it succeeds. A big if. If nothing changes on that stretch of Broad St - there's a decent chance this thing turns into a huge white elephant - vacant retail and difficulty filling 1000 apartments...

It's too much Icarus at this point for this stretch. The city really should actively get involved in the derelict and under-utilized properties down here.

The massive DNC contingent will all be coasting past this glorious stretch from their CC hotels down to the WF Center. it's an embarrassment for the region to have our famed Broad Street be so decrepit - I wonder if the city has interest in doing anything here?
good points as if it does fail in the current vision it is a very difficult set of retail to retrofit whereas street fronting portions can be more easily modified/morphed if it doesn't gain momentum in the form. Filling all those with professional (lawyers, Drs, etc )seems a stretch and have trouble seeing any other use. The big box super-market or a TJs etc could work there regardless
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  #79  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:48 PM
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It's a shame that one of Philadelphia's leading developers and someone who owns so many prime development parcels in this city is seemingly incapable of understanding even the most basic tenants of urbanism.

The whole palazzo on roof idea is terrible. Beyond terrible really. It's god damn idiotic. Someone close to Blatstein needs to grab him by the collar and repeatedly smack him across the face until he wakes up and understands how moronic this idea is. It's for his own good.

Beyond that, the desire to create a super block here instead of creating a more human scaled development is terrible. The massing is idiotic. Designing a building on two major streets that will basically have no ground floor steet presence. Just terrible. Hate it.

Worst part though, cant imagine neighbors would support it or that it would be approved especially considering Blatstein's recent track record of accomplishing nothing. This is worse than a terribly designed project, it's a project that isn't going to happen. This lot is going to be vacant for a long time.
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  #80  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 10:06 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Doing what exactly? Its not like these are city owned lots. If they are privately owned and the taxes are paid I'm not sure what the City can or should do.
I dunno. #whatwoulddaleydo
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