Will any other metro host multiple teams in the same sport?

[Crawford]

I'm not clear why Toronto is an obvious expansion location. The Leafs have possibly the best fan base of any team in North America. The Wings and Sabers are also very popular in Ontario, and have committed nearby bases. I assume the Senators and Canadiens also have support. Who would want to go up against that with an upstart expansion club?

Also, isn't the NHL most popular among non-immigrant whites? GTA growth doesn't necessarily correspond with growth of NHL base.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Handro

Again, I think the LA people are jumping in here and ignoring the context of the thread.

We were discussing the fact that in 2019, it's a whole different ballgame than the 1950s-60s when most two-franchse cities became two franchise cities. Nowadays, it would be much more difficult for any city to add a second franchise in any major sport because sports fandom is already baked into whatever franchises currently exist.

The only example of a city adding a second franchise in one of the four major leagues that we have in the past 50 years is Los Angeles adding the Charges (the Rams in this case would be the legacy team, since they were an LA team for decades before moving to St. Louis.)

It's not working out great so far, and many in the NFL offices and across the league are concerned at just how poorly it's going. It's got nothing to do with LA as a city, as it would be the same in any city. You can calm down the LA boosterism. LA is a massive market, nearly on par with New York, so if they can't add a second team in the most popular sport, no city can.

As for bringing up the raiders:



LA folks: Relax. Not sure if this is just insane civic pride/defensiveness gone awry or we've found some actual Los Angeles-based Chargers fans in the wild, lol.

Who's arguing? We're on the same page

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by badrunner

The Chargers are better off as the forgotten team in LA than if they had moved to some second tier city to be the only game in town. It's more profitable for the league as well.

It's better for the owners but it's not better for the players or the fans to be outnumbered every single home game.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No, it's because the Chargers don't have LA fans, and the SD fans are boycotting. Has nothing to do with weather or tourism.

If other teams didn't have a lot of local support their stands would be empty (which is indeed what we see in a lot of other cities), but the Chargers always sell out their home games, why is that?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah. Viggo Mortensen became a Montreal Canadiens fan as a result of growing up in Watertown NY. He even learned some French in order to live his fandom to the max, and addressed the crowd in that language at the Habs' 100th anniversary celebration in 1909.

But generally speaking across northern NY, VT, NH and ME Habs fandom is often a Franco-American thing. It's a family tradition to cheer for the team, similar to how some Mexican-Americans cheer for Mexican soccer teams.

Of course, the further south you get in New England, and obviously in the Boston area, even Franco-Americans become fans of the Bruins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Rancourt

Not really. Les Canadiens are just a popular team with a lot of Cups under their belt and for many in Upstate NY, the closest team. Northern New England is solid Bruins country. Montreal and New York are equidistant from my hometown. And I hate to say it as a fan but the Rangers suck. The family connection might be a factor in northern NY and NE but once you get further south, it's either watered down or non existent.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No, it's because the Chargers don't have LA fans, and the SD fans are boycotting. Has nothing to do with weather or tourism.

If the Chargers were still playing in SD the crowd would be all Chargers, even though SD has perfect weather and tons of tourism.

Nope. I live in downtown and there are always tons of out of town visitors here for specific games.

San Diego was routinely taken over by visiting fans. Broncos, chiefs, raiders, 49ers, etc

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

Nope. I live in downtown and there are always tons of out of town visitors here for specific games.

San Diego was routinely taken over by visiting fans. Broncos, chiefs, raiders, 49ers, etc

Also true in baseball. Petco Park is 70/30 Giants/Padres fans when the Giants are in town.

But I think the point is, after the Chargers moved away from SD, they have even less fans in attendance.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

Nope. I live in downtown and there are always tons of out of town visitors here for specific games.

San Diego was routinely taken over by visiting fans. Broncos, chiefs, raiders, 49ers, etc

Yup, it was pretty well known for NFL fans. You could see it on TV.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Handro

One is a city without a team, the other is a city adding a second team, the comparison is in how each city will/did embrace the addition of the new team. In a discussion about the viability of adding a second franchise to a city it's a fantastic comparison. "The Chargers would have been better off moving to a city without a team" is not a bold claim. We could have used the Las Vegas Golden Knights as another example of a team being added to a city without a franchise, if being NFL-centric confused you. Or the OKC Thunder, for another recent example. Both cities gravitated towards those teams immediately.

Again, this is not a knock on Los Angeles. It's, like you said, about sports fandom, which was what the original point of my very first post about the topic. I used LA and the Chargers simply because it's the only city/team that has been added as a SECOND franchise in the past 50 years. My point was and is (and I think it's your point too, which is why I find it strange you are so worked up and antagonistic) is that sports fandom is baked into a city's culture if it already has a team, and adding a second in 2019 is at best extremely difficult and at worst not possible. You may not be worried about the Chargers, but many in the NFL--from execs to team owners--have leaked to the press that there have been discussions about a contingency plan if they don't turn it around.

I'm a 49er fan, so I'm not concerned. The Chargers owner laughs off the media leaks, and he's the only one that matters. I don't really care if the Chargers stay or not though.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by LA21st

I'm a 49er fan, so I'm not concerned. The Chargers owner laughs off the media leaks, and he's the only one that matters. I don't really care if the Chargers stay or not though.

The Chargers really screwed themselves by moving into a soccer stadium. They should have just stayed in San Diego, but I think it'll work out for them in LA in the long run. We'll see how they do in the new Inglewood stadium.

I'm a Raiders fan from way back when so I'm actually more excited about the new stadium in Las Vegas. It's an absolutely stunning design with some unique features. Better than SoFi I think. You're right that Las Vegas has always been Raider Nation so it's a great move for them.

[edale]

I don't know a single person in LA who likes or cheers for the Chargers...not a single one. The Rams have a good amount of support, as they 'came home' after being away for many years. I also think playing in the Coliseum helped ingrain them back into the city, as it's a legendary local venue and USC's home field and right in the center of the city instead of the burbs.

The Chargers definitely should have stayed in SD. San Diego is a big enough metro to support an NFL team, and they did support them well for many years. There's absolutely no reason they should have moved to LA except for the greed of Dean Spanos and the NFL. No one wants them here, and the people of San Diego are pissed to have had their team ripped away from them, and rightly so. Sure they sell out their games, but is that really hard to do when they play in a 30,000 seat stadium? The overwhelming majority of fans at their games are fans of the visiting team. Hell, Phillip Rivers didn't even move up to LA when the team did. He drives up to Carson every day. They're a mess of an organization, and I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them move to another city in a few years. Maybe Portland, maybe back to San Diego (with a different owner), or maybe even St. Louis or somewhere else in the midwest or east.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by edale

I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them move to another city in a few years. Maybe Portland, maybe back to San Diego (with a different owner), or maybe even St. Louis or somewhere else in the midwest or east.

or maybe oakland? i hear they might be looking for a new NFL team soon

and with the way california NFL teams seem to change cities every 15 minutes, it might just happen!

[LA21st]

That's the thing though, why would they leave if he's selling out games anyway? I doubt Spanos cares WHO is buying tickets. And because LA's such a huge market, the Chargers local TV share is still greater than smaller NFL TV markets. The numbers are out there, forgot where I saw it though.

Yes, they would need a new owner to leave imo. Spanos has been outspoken of not going anywhere. And his team is about to have the sleekest home in the league next year.

[edale]

Originally Posted by LA21st

That's the thing though, why would they leave if he's selling out games anyway? I doubt Spanos cares WHO is buying tickets. And because LA's such a huge market, the Chargers local TV share is still greater than smaller NFL TV markets. The numbers are out there, forgot where I saw it though.

Yes, they would need a new owner to leave imo. Spanos has been outspoken of not going anywhere. And his team is about to have the sleekest home in the league next year.

No one cares about what's good for the billionaire owner. Sports are the most fun when people have a real attachment to their teams, and when teams feel like they're part of a city's identity. So Spanos gets even richer by moving to LA because, as you note, the larger market alone means more money from a sweeter TV deal. The only people who care about this are Spanos, his family, and Roger Goodell. The average NFL fan couldn't give less of a shit about the valuation of the franchise or the tv ratings.

The relocation drama is part of the reason I've stopped paying much attention to the NFL, and have gotten more into college football these days. USC isn't just going to up and leave to play in Texas because they dangle a shiny new stadium for them to play in. Given San Diego's history, there were real rivalries between them and other AFC West teams. I suppose the same can happen in LA if given enough time, but seeing how no one here asked for the Chargers or even wanted them, I don't think the team will ever really be something people here care about. It's Clippers 2.0.

I agree with whoever it was on this thread who said that secondary teams in metros really only work when there are 'city' teams, and 'suburb' teams. Classic case being the Angels and Ducks, who are still in LA's orbit, but are squarely OC teams. Very few cities in the country (plus Toronto) have suburban areas that are populated and wealthy enough to support a second team. Chicago's second most populated county (DuPage) is home to almost a million people, which is quite a lot, but not enough to support a pro team. Orange County, by contrast, is home to over 3 million people, and is also pretty wealthy and it's a huge tourist destination. The Angel's stadium is basically across the freeway from Disneyland. There are basically no other similar situations that I can think of, except NYC/Long Island/Jersey.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by edale

I don't know a single person in LA who likes or cheers for the Chargers...not a single one. The Rams have a good amount of support, as they 'came home' after being away for many years. I also think playing in the Coliseum helped ingrain them back into the city, as it's a legendary local venue and USC's home field and right in the center of the city instead of the burbs.

The Chargers definitely should have stayed in SD. San Diego is a big enough metro to support an NFL team, and they did support them well for many years. There's absolutely no reason they should have moved to LA except for the greed of Dean Spanos and the NFL. No one wants them here, and the people of San Diego are pissed to have had their team ripped away from them, and rightly so. Sure they sell out their games, but is that really hard to do when they play in a 30,000 seat stadium? The overwhelming majority of fans at their games are fans of the visiting team. Hell, Phillip Rivers didn't even move up to LA when the team did. He drives up to Carson every day. They're a mess of an organization, and I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them move to another city in a few years. Maybe Portland, maybe back to San Diego (with a different owner), or maybe even St. Louis or somewhere else in the midwest or east.

The Chargers are not moving anywhere other than Inglewood. They have a ridiculous lease and will be playing in the greatest stadium ever built in Los Angeles, where their value is worth more than anywhere else. I think the value of the team went up by over a billion dollars overnight when they moved to LA. Theres no way the NFL will allow them to move

[LA21st]

Spanos is the one that matters until he sells it. The NFL can't do anything about it if they wanted to. Who knows if they're unhappy about the Chargers anyway? It's just "speculation".
Why would they care who goes to the stadium if it sells out?

People can keep saying the Chargers should move to Little Rock or something all they want, but I don't see that happening.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

The Chargers are not moving anywhere other than Inglewood. They have a ridiculous lease and will be playing in the greatest stadium ever built in Los Angeles, where their value is worth more than anywhere else. I think the value of the team went up by over a billion dollars overnight when they moved to LA. Theres no way the NFL will allow them to move

Exactly. That stadium will blow people away next year.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

The Chargers are not moving anywhere other than Inglewood. They have a ridiculous lease and will be playing in the greatest stadium ever built in Los Angeles, where their value is worth more than anywhere else. I think the value of the team went up by over a billion dollars overnight when they moved to LA. Theres no way the NFL will allow them to move

Again, real sports fans don't care about the value of the team. Do you think Knicks fans care that they're the highest valued team in the league when the product, at every level of the organization from ownership to players, has been trash for nearly two decades?

[LA21st]

But the Spanos cares about the value. I'm not a fan of Spanos, but who cares what the fans think in this situation? They have no power. Not sure what the arguement is here.

LA was screwed the same way in the 1990s with the Rams.

Many teams are screwed with their owners, there's nothing fans can do about it. The Bears, the Redskins, Knicks etc. It is what it is.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not clear why Toronto is an obvious expansion location. The Leafs have possibly the best fan base of any team in North America. The Wings and Sabers are also very popular in Ontario, and have committed nearby bases. I assume the Senators and Canadiens also have support. Who would want to go up against that with an upstart expansion club?

Also, isn't the NHL most popular among non-immigrant whites? GTA growth doesn't necessarily correspond with growth of NHL base.

There's definitely a sizable portion of Toronto fans who've been priced out of going to games for well over a decade. The idea is that Hamilton would attract that blue-collar crowd as well as those from the surrounding areas like Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Brantford, etc. who haven't seen affordable live professional hockey in a long time. I don't doubt that they could fill the arena, even if a decent chunk of the crowd were still Leafs fans at heart.

The real challenge is carving out a sustainable tv viewership base. If the team was able to get competitive at a time when the Leafs weren't, they would get a following. A lot of cities bandwagon, but it's a way of life for Torontonians. People in the city like a good show and media attention. The Jays can go from bottom 10 in attendance and tv viewership to top 5 after making the playoffs (they finished above the Yankees and Redsox in attendance in 2016 after one year of playoffs). In one year, the Raptors have grown to become one of the largest online fanbases with 200,000 subscribers to the team's subreddit (second only to the Lakers). If they could produce a winning team, I think they would have a really good chance of being successful.

I think the much more realistic scenario is through an ownership group focused on the entertainment business, similar to how Barclays in Brooklyn originally came about. There's been talk in the past of a new stadium in North Toronto/Markham for concerts since the ACC is operating pretty much beyond max capacity. Concerts and other events are the real money-makers for venue operators nowadays. The schedule is sporadic though and apart from the absolute largest markets you need an anchor tenant to keep a baseline level of activity and pay the bills. This is where I see someone willing to subsidize a few years of hardship while a new franchise finds its footing. If there's enough demand for events, it could still be a profitable endeavour. Other problem in Canada is you need ownership with deep pockets since they would likely have to fund a significant portion themselves. We don't have many eccentric billionaire, Steve Balmer-types.