Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Orlando]

That's an argument of a suburban sprawlite. It's conceeding that suburbs are the future. That is a very environmentally unsustainable and disconnected future. Unfortunately, that is how the Wasatch Front has been developing, and you are probably a product of that typical mindset. Yes, we need nodes, but the center of the smallish metro area is still Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City lacks so much of that vibrancy and cohesiveness because of the drain from the suburbs. There are so many pockets of parking lots and derelict buildings. Fortunately, it has been getting better. But, the predominant sprawl-like development of stand-alone office buildings in a sea of parking is so backwards and is far from what is happening in more smartly developed cities like Seattle and Vancouver.

[tchild2]

Originally Posted by Orlando

That's an argument of a suburban sprawlite. It's conceeding that suburbs are the future. That is a very environmentally unsustainable and disconnected future. Unfortunately, that is how the Wasatch Front has been developing, and you are probably a product of that typical mindset. Yes, we need nodes, but the center of the smallish metro area is still Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City lacks so much of that vibrancy and cohesiveness because of the drain from the suburbs. There are so many pockets of parking lots and derelict buildings. Fortunately, it has been getting better. But, the predominant sprawl-like development of stand-alone office buildings in a sea of parking is so backwards and is far from what is happening in more smartly developed cities like Seattle and Vancouver.

Urbanized Nodes - at first are more suburban yes, but eventually no, they are extensions of the larger city, spread out. It will take a couple of decades but the density will arrive. So, you are saying that downtown should have 200 highrises stretching up the skies, while the existing suburbs (they are already built and are not going anywhere) remain as 1/2 acre lots where everyone commutes into and out of downtown? Remember, SL and Utah county are not like Denver, or Atlanta, or Dallas. They are constrained by borders and suburban sprawl has its limits.

First and foremost is transportation. Utah is developing transportation for the future. I bought a townhome in Draper off 7th E. for my oldest son precisely because it was within a block away and walking distance of light rail. That is the future. My son can get downtown, the airport, U of U, wherever, in 20-30 minutes on light rail but not have to live downtown.

I live in Utah county and work in Thanksgiving point. My commute is exactly 20 minutes. I live on the east bench and that adds ten minutes just to get to the freeway. Otherwise, it would be about ten minutes to commute to work. Would I want to commute to SLC everyday? Hell no. Would I love the Lehi-Draper area to be a mini urban extension of SLC? Hell yes.

Vancouver is a canadian city, and frankly no US city even compares. Even Seattle seems like a rust belt city compared to Vancouver. We can only progress from where we are at. It is obvious that downtown is growing up and that it will condense, build up, densify, and rise up. but it will only do so as the rest of the valley urbanizes along with downtown growth. Yin and yang, they both go together.

I am not arguing what I want, I am explaining the trends that I see.

My .04 cents.

[||acres||]

Originally Posted by tchild2

Urbanized Nodes - at first are more suburban yes, but eventually no, they are extensions of the larger city, spread out. It will take a couple of decades but the density will arrive. So, you are saying that downtown should have 200 highrises stretching up the skies, while the existing suburbs (they are already built and are not going anywhere) remain as 1/2 acre lots where everyone commutes into and out of downtown? Remember, SL and Utah county are not like Denver, or Atlanta, or Dallas. They are constrained by borders and suburban sprawl has its limits.

First and foremost is transportation. Utah is developing transportation for the future. I bought a townhome in Draper off 7th E. for my oldest son precisely because it was within a block away and walking distance of light rail. That is the future. My son can get downtown, the airport, U of U, wherever, in 20-30 minutes on light rail but not have to live downtown.

I live in Utah county and work in Thanksgiving point. My commute is exactly 20 minutes. I live on the east bench and that adds ten minutes just to get to the freeway. Otherwise, it would be about ten minutes to commute to work. Would I want to commute to SLC everyday? Hell no. Would I love the Lehi-Draper area to be a mini urban extension of SLC? Hell yes.

Vancouver is a canadian city, and frankly no US city even compares. Even Seattle seems like a rust belt city compared to Vancouver. We can only progress from where we are at. It is obvious that downtown is growing up and that it will condense, build up, densify, and rise up. but it will only do so as the rest of the valley urbanizes along with downtown growth. Yin and yang, they both go together.

I am not arguing what I want, I am explaining the trends that I see.

My .04 cents.

This opinion is certainly in line with our state leadership's which is why I think this urbanized nodes concept is pretty likely to happen.

I do however think that Salt Lake City offers a very specific cultural interface which is not going to be matched any where else in the state in the foreseeable future.

(Although this prison site may be able to compete. I think whatever they put there is really going to determine the MO for the next few years as far as development.)

Traditional family values dominate the suburbs and...something else is found in Salt Lake City. Honestly the victor of that ideological conflict is going to decide if the suburbs or CBDs are going to grow and attract investment. Salt Lake needs to really establish itself as a premiere city in the coming decades or else Utah County is going to grow beyond comparison.

[Makid]

The current plan for the SL Valley is from Envision Utah and the Wasatch Front Regional Council. The plan is to build nodes around the valley.

The nodes will be where higher intensity development occurs. The nodes will be on rapid transit lines (Trax, FrontRunner, BRT).

The following are the nodes for the SL Valley:

Downtown SLC- Metropolitan Center - highest intensity
Sugarhouse SLC - Urban Center - Mild intensity
West Valley City (Valley Fair/Fairborne Station) - Urban Center - Mild intensity
Sandy (Between Trax and FrontRunner) - Urban Center - Mild intensity
Cottonwood Heights (Old Mill) - Urban Center - Mild intensity
Draper (Point of the Mountain) - Urban Center - Mild intensity
Murray - Urban Center - Mild intensity

The idea is that these nodes will be the focus for higher intensity developments. As they connect to other nodes via frequent transit, the hope is that this will reduce traffic while improving air quality.

The overall goal is to keep the higher intensity projects located in downtown SLC. The other nodes may have some taller buildings but will not be the focus of higher intensity developments. Think of the nodes as TOD's if this helps.

Overall, the plan is to have the City be a City and the suburbs be suburbs with a small area of increased intensity.

I do think though that we will some some additional areas outside of these nodes like South Salt Lakes downtown plans. But even then, it is on and around frequent transit lines.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by tchild2

Urbanized Nodes - at first are more suburban yes, but eventually no, they are extensions of the larger city, spread out. It will take a couple of decades but the density will arrive. So, you are saying that downtown should have 200 highrises stretching up the skies, while the existing suburbs (they are already built and are not going anywhere) remain as 1/2 acre lots where everyone commutes into and out of downtown? Remember, SL and Utah county are not like Denver, or Atlanta, or Dallas. They are constrained by borders and suburban sprawl has its limits.

First and foremost is transportation. Utah is developing transportation for the future. I bought a townhome in Draper off 7th E. for my oldest son precisely because it was within a block away and walking distance of light rail. That is the future. My son can get downtown, the airport, U of U, wherever, in 20-30 minutes on light rail but not have to live downtown.

I live in Utah county and work in Thanksgiving point. My commute is exactly 20 minutes. I live on the east bench and that adds ten minutes just to get to the freeway. Otherwise, it would be about ten minutes to commute to work. Would I want to commute to SLC everyday? Hell no. Would I love the Lehi-Draper area to be a mini urban extension of SLC? Hell yes.

Vancouver is a canadian city, and frankly no US city even compares. Even Seattle seems like a rust belt city compared to Vancouver. We can only progress from where we are at. It is obvious that downtown is growing up and that it will condense, build up, densify, and rise up. but it will only do so as the rest of the valley urbanizes along with downtown growth. Yin and yang, they both go together.

I am not arguing what I want, I am explaining the trends that I see.

My .04 cents.

I figured as much that you lived in sprawltopia, ie. Lehi, Draper, etc. That's awesome that you lived next to transit line. But, unfortunately, much of that development out there is still based on a very car-centric mindset. You live in Lehi for the jobs in Thanksgiving Point. So, of course it doesn't make sense that you commute to downtown. What I'm arguing is that there is no central consensus or still a very backwards sprawl mindset of Utahns versus the more urban Salt Lakers, who seem to understand the problems of sprawl. Lehi has no real masterplan for office buildings and mixed-use development to not be car-dependent. There is no incentive to not be car-centered and therefore there really isn't much to curb the trend to sprawl out as far as cheap land is allowed to be developed on despite the fact that it further exacerbates infrastructure , ir. roads, sewer, utility issues. This is in complete contrast to Portland and Seattle, where new road construction is frowned upon and new mass transit is highly encouraged. Tighter, denser, walkable, and more vibrant urban development is therefore encouraged up here.

[bob rulz]

I think the urbanized nodes are going to happen no matter what. We already see West Valley City, South Salt Lake, Millcreek, Sandy, etc developing "downtown" areas. Daybreak is slowly adding more office and commercial space. The prison redevelopment site is going to be a huge node for better or worse.

I think that there is room for downtown and these nodes to grow at a good pace, especially given the geographic restrictions.

[allh]

Anyone know when the commercial side of the RL hotel will start construction?

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Orlando

That's an argument of a suburban sprawlite. It's conceeding that suburbs are the future. That is a very environmentally unsustainable and disconnected future. Unfortunately, that is how the Wasatch Front has been developing, and you are probably a product of that typical mindset. Yes, we need nodes, but the center of the smallish metro area is still Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City lacks so much of that vibrancy and cohesiveness because of the drain from the suburbs. There are so many pockets of parking lots and derelict buildings. Fortunately, it has been getting better. But, the predominant sprawl-like development of stand-alone office buildings in a sea of parking is so backwards and is far from what is happening in more smartly developed cities like Seattle and Vancouver.

We need a developer to create a proof of concept that there can be a new way to grow which also:

• Meets family needs
• Is as affordable (or more affordable) than sprawl

I had hoped Daybreak would be that proof of concept. Maybe we need infill examples. Because while mid-rise towers in SLC are great to meet the need of thousands of urbanites, we do kid ourselves if we think that can satisfy affordable family housing for most Utah families.

My mid-30s Millennial friends have gradually been buying houses in the past 5 years (finally). None of them embraced urbanism. Even one friend just sold a house in West Jordan and is moving to Eagle Mountain.

What really kills me is that we aren't building a Frontrunner spur into Eagle Mountain right now. We know a million people will move out there. The city could grow outward from a new transit-friendly "downtown." My friend would use the rail if it were there.

But we aren't even considering preserving R.O.W. for a spur. Sigh.

[Old&New]

Scream!!! I love this!

Originally Posted by Hatman

Since the discussion is on the Gateway and the Depot District, now is probably as good a time as any to drop the final draft of the Rio Grande Plan in this thread:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e2Z...ew?usp=sharing (PDF Warning)

It's basically the same plan as before, but now the document is only 18 pages long. Forum member cj.blakely provided the absolutely beautiful renderings, which (IMO) need to be posted here separately so that he can get all the praise he deserves.

Here is just a taste:

Existing



Proposed



As always, if you see anything horribly wrong, (poor words, ugly formatting, errors, etc) please let me know so I can fix them before sending this to the big wigs.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by i-215

We need a developer to create a proof of concept that there can be a new way to grow which also:

• Meets family needs
• Is as affordable (or more affordable) than sprawl

I had hoped Daybreak would be that proof of concept. Maybe we need infill examples. Because while mid-rise towers in SLC are great to meet the need of thousands of urbanites, we do kid ourselves if we think that can satisfy affordable family housing for most Utah families.

My mid-30s Millennial friends have gradually been buying houses in the past 5 years (finally). None of them embraced urbanism. Even one friend just sold a house in West Jordan and is moving to Eagle Mountain.

What really kills me is that we aren't building a Frontrunner spur into Eagle Mountain right now. We know a million people will move out there. The city could grow outward from a new transit-friendly "downtown." My friend would use the rail if it were there.

But we aren't even considering preserving R.O.W. for a spur. Sigh.

What kills me is that there aren't incentives or growth boundaries to stop that Phoenix & Vegas like sprawl out into the desert. More people need to be educated on sprawl and the ill effects of unconstrained development, consumerism, and energy consumption, etc. After all, you're in a desert state, and the more you are spread out the more infrastructure and more water it takes to have all those lawns green, etc., etc. The US is the world's leading polluter and energy consumer (40 to 50% of the world), and yet our population is only 300 million of 7 billion people. If everybody else on the planet had lifestyles like the majority of us in the US, where we quickly discard homes or products for something newer, our planet would be a disasterous mess. We act so ignorantly when it comes to smart urbanism. It has to got to change, and it needs to start with better education to all the residents along the Wasatch Front about these issues. I know they don't like Government telling them what to do, but the government is paying for all that infrastructure and everything else.

Also, it's a good bet that most Millenials in Utah, ie. raised to have 3 or 4 kids, etc., are much different than the typical Millenials outside of Utah.

[mattreedah]

Originally Posted by Orlando

What kills me is that there aren't incentives or growth boundaries to stop that Phoenix & Vegas like sprawl out into the desert. More people need to be educated on sprawl and the ill effects of unconstrained development, consumerism, and energy consumption, etc. After all, you're in a desert state, and the more you are spread out the more infrastructure and more water it takes to have all those lawns green, etc., etc. The US is the world's leading polluter and energy consumer (40 to 50% of the world), and yet our population is only 300 million of 7 billion people. If everybody else on the planet had lifestyles like the majority of us in the US, where we quickly discard homes or products for something newer, our planet would be a disasterous mess. We act so ignorantly when it comes to smart urbanism. It has to got to change, and it needs to start with better education to all the residents along the Wasatch Front about these issues. I know they don't like Government telling them what to do, but the government is paying for all that infrastructure and everything else.

Also, it's a good bet that most Millenials in Utah, ie. raised to have 3 or 4 kids, etc., are much different than the typical Millenials outside of Utah.

I honestly don't think it's an education issue. I mean, I'm pretty well versed in all that. I've lived in apartments most of my college and married life in and around SLC (15 years) and for a few years of law school in Spokane WA. Just got a single family home in the north-Tucson suburbs two years back. Just put in a patch of grass. Have a few dogs. You know what, it's absolutely delightful. I hate to see the desert get built on more here and yes i'm a hypocrite. But dang it, I love it.

[ThePusherMan]

I’m a millennial in Utah and I bought a house on 15th and West Temple. All of my friends from college live in the city or in larger cities because we care about things like food and beverage and other cultural things you can’t get outside of the city. The nodes will grow inevitably but my wife is from Gilbert AZ. It’s come a long way since we’ve been visiting her family there but it’s certainly nothing compared to a real downtown.

[Blah_Amazing]

.

[delts145]

Say goodbye to the old: Months of demolition underway at Salt Lake airport

By Daedan Olander Nov 24, 2020, 5:10pm MST - https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/11...t-lake-airport

Workers dismantle the old parking garage and terminals at the Salt Lake City International Airport on Tuesday, Nov. 24, 2020. Scott G Winterton, Deseret News

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[Comrade]

Can I just say that the phrase smart sprawl is a goddamn oxymoron? No sprawl can be smart. Sprawl, by its definition, is disorganized...the exact opposite of 'smart'.

[Orlando]

Here's a slightly off-topic post, but offers a nice break from other discussions. Songs with Salt Lake City mentioned in them:

Don't Get So Down on Yourself by Chris Isaak
(share any other songs if you know of any)

[Boz]

Salt Lake City by the Beach Boys

[taboubak]

Unconditional- Matt Maeson is a great song with Salt Lake city in it

[mattreedah]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Here's a slightly off-topic post, but offers a nice break from other discussions. Songs with Salt Lake City mentioned in them:

Don't Get So Down on Yourself by Chris Isaak
(share any other songs in you know of any)

The two I thought of (other than The Beach Boys song) were the Band of Horses song ‘The Great Salt Lake’ and The Pixies song ‘The Thing’. They are probably more talking about the lake than the city but I think they count.

[Makid]

Here is my random song that includes Salt Lake City in the lyrics:

• Video Link

Sadly, I have had this running through my head as a nasty ear worm for the last few days. So, sorry in advance for possibly passing the ear worm along.