Sandy Hill Truck Tunnel

[Harley613]

Another pedestrian was hit on Rideau Street this week. I think it's time to start a thread about the feasibility of a downtown truck tunnel under Sandy Hill. It's been mentioned many times but I don't think we have a dedicated thread. It has become apparent that the Kettle Island bridge won't happen due to the protests of the 30-40 residents that back directly onto the Aviation Parkway (sorry for the sarcasm). I am fairly confident that the tunnel is the only solution that will be accepted in the long run. We have discussed the tunnel option in several other threads but I think it deserves it's own dedicated discussion going forward

The feasibility study was mentioned in the Citizen today:
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...nd-waller-safe

Also, the RFP for the study is mentioned in detail here:

http://www.ssd-ottawa.ca/latest-news

'Downtown Truck Tunnel Study RFP Released
posted Apr 29, 2014, 11:09 AM by John Verbaas [ updated May 6, 2014, 9:05 AM ]
Apr 29, 2014

The City of Ottawa and the Ontario Ministry of Transport have released the RFP for a consultant to perform a feasibility study for a downtown truck tunnel intended to remove interprovincial trucks from King Edward Ave, Rideau St, and Waller. Bidders are to respond by May 15 and the study is expected to be completed and available to the public in early 2016. The scope of the technical analysis that will be required is listed on pages 7-13 of this Tunnel Study RFP document.

Separately, representatives of Action Sandy Hill and the King Edward Ave Task Force met with Mayor Jim Watson's office on Apr 24th to outline their concerns/priorities for this study. A summary of some of the items discussed includes:
the RFP for the tunnel study would be posted to MERX within days
there will be no opportunities for the public to participate/have input during the course of the study
the possibility exists to ask to meet with the winning consultant if there is an interest in contributing input during the course of the study
the study scope will include analysis of options for allowing the tunnel to be used by cars as well
the study scope will include an analysis of how to manage trucks carrying dangerous goods
multiple tunnel scenarios would be analyzed and a preferred scenario indicated
when finished, the study will be released to the public and after a month will go to committee and council
if there is a decision to proceed further, the next step would be an environmental assessment (EA)
any attempts to perform a cost/benefit analysis or quanitfy the public good would happen later at this EA stage
it was asked what challenges there would be to moving forward with a project since the Transportation Master Plan (TMP) 2013 doesn't even have a tunnel on the list of planned infrastructure projects in the next 20yr time horizon. The response was that if council wanted to make it happen that they could move ahead without having to first update the TMP
it is likely they expect it to be a toll tunnel built as a P3
the community expressed the opinion that tolls would likely not be able to finance 100% of the cost and the response was that the City will be 'talking this up' with the senior gov'ts to be contributors (the new federal Building Canada Fund was mentioned several times.
the mayor reiterated his view that an east end bridge was just not a very good (practical?) idea and that there really wasn't any money available to build it anyways
when asked 'what next' if the tunnel study concluded a tunnel wasn't feasible, no one seemed prepared to talk about what the contingency plans were if that was the outcome
The meeting concluded with a discussion of what could be done in the interim to improve the safety along the current downtown truck route. Mathieu Fleury indicated he is discussing some options with the contractor who is still on site completing the Rideau street sewer work. Some of the options discussed included:
putting bollards on the sidewalks on the 2 sharp right hand turns to help build some barrier against trucks climbing the curb during their turns
ways to try to slow the trucks down a bit. They often wheel around these corners at 20-30km/hr trying to get around before the traffic lights turn. That is just way too fast for an 18 wheeler on a pedestrian thoroughfare
slowing trucks down on the King Edward 'straight aways' was also discussed. Solving these problems seemed mostly focused on solutions involving getting the police to hand out more tickets and installing a speed board to show vehicle's speeds rather than making changes to the roadway to make it seem less like a 'freeway'
it was suggested we might have to consider restrictions on the double tandem trailer trucks and that the way the corners are engineered right now, those types of trucks may not capable of making the turn without mounting the sidewalk. It was suggested that the traffic engineering department investigate.
lastly it was asked if there could be any discussion on diversifying the truck route by allowing some trucks to use the Vanier Parkway. There was no commitment to follow-up this item further.'

[1overcosc]

I'm about to move into Sandy Hill. I'll probably soon be biased on this issue, but before that opens I can hopefully objectively assess just how bad the truck situation is.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Harley613

the study scope will include analysis of options for allowing the tunnel to be used by cars as well

I would think that would be a 'must-have' item on the agenda. Getting the heavy trucks off the surface streets is obviously one key objective, but it would probably provide the proposal with more traction if they also were to allow other traffic to use the tunnel as well.

Originally Posted by Harley613

The meeting concluded with a discussion of what could be done in the interim to improve the safety along the current downtown truck route. Mathieu Fleury indicated he is discussing some options with the contractor who is still on site completing the Rideau street sewer work. Some of the options discussed included:
putting bollards on the sidewalks on the 2 sharp right hand turns to help build some barrier against trucks climbing the curb during their turns
'

That seems like a very bad idea. So instead of having trucks occasionally infringe on the sidewalk on those corners, you'll run the (almost certain) risk of having a truck hang up on one of those bollards. How long is that going to take to clear up?

It would seem a much simpler solution would be to simply demarcate a zone on the corner and warn pedestrians to be aware of trucks turning. It's unfortunate any time a pedestrian gets hit by a vehicle, particularly if the vehicle is infringing on the pedestrian zone, but, as a pedestrian, you still need to be vigilant and retain an awareness of your surroundings. I've seen countless examples of people walking along while wearing headphones, or engaged in phone conversations at the expense of being aware of what's happening around them.

I'm not blaming the victim here, but whether you are in the right or in the wrong, an incident involving a pedestrian and a vehicle will always end up badly for the pedestrian.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Another pedestrian was hit on Rideau Street this week. I think it's time to start a thread about the feasibility of a downtown truck tunnel under Sandy Hill. It's been mentioned many times but I don't think we have a dedicated thread. It has become apparent that the Kettle Island bridge won't happen due to the protests of the 30-40 residents that back directly onto the Aviation Parkway (sorry for the sarcasm). I am fairly confident that the tunnel is the only solution that will be accepted in the long run. We have discussed the tunnel option in several other threads but I think it deserves it's own dedicated discussion going forward

The feasibility study was mentioned in the Citizen today:
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...nd-waller-safe

Also, the RFP for the study is mentioned in detail here:

http://www.ssd-ottawa.ca/latest-news

'Downtown Truck Tunnel Study RFP Released
posted Apr 29, 2014, 11:09 AM by John Verbaas [ updated May 6, 2014, 9:05 AM ]
Apr 29, 2014

The City of Ottawa and the Ontario Ministry of Transport have released the RFP for a consultant to perform a feasibility study for a downtown truck tunnel intended to remove interprovincial trucks from King Edward Ave, Rideau St, and Waller. Bidders are to respond by May 15 and the study is expected to be completed and available to the public in early 2016. The scope of the technical analysis that will be required is listed on pages 7-13 of this Tunnel Study RFP document.

Separately, representatives of Action Sandy Hill and the King Edward Ave Task Force met with Mayor Jim Watson's office on Apr 24th to outline their concerns/priorities for this study. A summary of some of the items discussed includes:
the RFP for the tunnel study would be posted to MERX within days
there will be no opportunities for the public to participate/have input during the course of the study
the possibility exists to ask to meet with the winning consultant if there is an interest in contributing input during the course of the study
the study scope will include analysis of options for allowing the tunnel to be used by cars as well
the study scope will include an analysis of how to manage trucks carrying dangerous goods
multiple tunnel scenarios would be analyzed and a preferred scenario indicated
when finished, the study will be released to the public and after a month will go to committee and council
if there is a decision to proceed further, the next step would be an environmental assessment (EA)
any attempts to perform a cost/benefit analysis or quanitfy the public good would happen later at this EA stage
it was asked what challenges there would be to moving forward with a project since the Transportation Master Plan (TMP) 2013 doesn't even have a tunnel on the list of planned infrastructure projects in the next 20yr time horizon. The response was that if council wanted to make it happen that they could move ahead without having to first update the TMP
it is likely they expect it to be a toll tunnel built as a P3
the community expressed the opinion that tolls would likely not be able to finance 100% of the cost and the response was that the City will be 'talking this up' with the senior gov'ts to be contributors (the new federal Building Canada Fund was mentioned several times.
the mayor reiterated his view that an east end bridge was just not a very good (practical?) idea and that there really wasn't any money available to build it anyways
when asked 'what next' if the tunnel study concluded a tunnel wasn't feasible, no one seemed prepared to talk about what the contingency plans were if that was the outcome
The meeting concluded with a discussion of what could be done in the interim to improve the safety along the current downtown truck route. Mathieu Fleury indicated he is discussing some options with the contractor who is still on site completing the Rideau street sewer work. Some of the options discussed included:
putting bollards on the sidewalks on the 2 sharp right hand turns to help build some barrier against trucks climbing the curb during their turns
ways to try to slow the trucks down a bit. They often wheel around these corners at 20-30km/hr trying to get around before the traffic lights turn. That is just way too fast for an 18 wheeler on a pedestrian thoroughfare
slowing trucks down on the King Edward 'straight aways' was also discussed. Solving these problems seemed mostly focused on solutions involving getting the police to hand out more tickets and installing a speed board to show vehicle's speeds rather than making changes to the roadway to make it seem less like a 'freeway'
it was suggested we might have to consider restrictions on the double tandem trailer trucks and that the way the corners are engineered right now, those types of trucks may not capable of making the turn without mounting the sidewalk. It was suggested that the traffic engineering department investigate.
lastly it was asked if there could be any discussion on diversifying the truck route by allowing some trucks to use the Vanier Parkway. There was no commitment to follow-up this item further.'

It is a lot more than 30-40 residents and it is really a small part of the reason it will never be built. There is not reason for Ontario to pay for a bridge which helps commuters move from paying taxes in Ontario to Quebec.

I live downtown and would love to find a way to get some of the trucks off the roads, but I don't see a Sandy Hill truck tunnel happening. A toll will never recover anywhere near enough revenue and it would seem there are a lot more citywide priorities for transportation funding. I can't see Quebec wanting to contribute either.

[1overcosc]

A truck tunnel probably couldn't make enough money to cover its construction cost. The study should look at the option of allowing cars to use it for a toll, which should increase revenue. There's people who would be willing to pay $2 to cross the river faster even though King Edward is free. We could also make King Edward less car-oriented after the tunnel is built with steps like narrowing it, adding segregated cycle tracks, more stop signs, etc. that would further incentivize using the tunnel and paying that toll.

Can it pay for itself? I have no idea. Hopefully the EA looks at all the options.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

A truck tunnel probably couldn't make enough money to cover its construction cost. The study should look at the option of allowing cars to use it for a toll, which should increase revenue. There's people who would be willing to pay $2 to cross the river faster even though King Edward is free. We could also make King Edward less car-oriented after the tunnel is built with steps like narrowing it, adding segregated cycle tracks, more stop signs, etc. that would further incentivize using the tunnel and paying that toll.

Can it pay for itself? I have no idea. Hopefully the EA looks at all the options.

With all the free options I don't see how it would ever be busy enough even a decent percentage of the costs.

For example see below where a tunnel in Seattle is replacing a viaduct that has 110,000 cars a day. They are trying to recover only 20% of the $1B cost via a toll and they are looking in the $3 range.

Another point from this article is the high maintenance costs of a tunnel compared to a viaduct.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/trans...ls-3878348.php

[MaxHeadroom]

Tunnel will never "pay for itself" and won't handle all trucks, as dangerous goods would not be permitted through it. Plus the existence of the LRT tunnel in the same area now complicates a truck tunnel to the point where it may not be feasible at all.

City of Ottawa dropped the ball for many years on this problem, didn't follow through with the Vanier Parkway extension, doesn't allow trucks on Vanier Parkway/St. Patrick which would be safer than downtown, and now there really is no solution that won't upset anyone. Even if a bridge is built in east and or west, traffic will take the shortest route anyway.

[Acajack]

OT - I just wanted to say how awesome it is to have someone called Max Headroom posting on a thread about a tunnel!

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Horus

I would think that would be a 'must-have' item on the agenda. Getting the heavy trucks off the surface streets is obviously one key objective, but it would probably provide the proposal with more traction if they also were to allow other traffic to use the tunnel as well.



That seems like a very bad idea. So instead of having trucks occasionally infringe on the sidewalk on those corners, you'll run the (almost certain) risk of having a truck hang up on one of those bollards. How long is that going to take to clear up?

It would seem a much simpler solution would be to simply demarcate a zone on the corner and warn pedestrians to be aware of trucks turning. It's unfortunate any time a pedestrian gets hit by a vehicle, particularly if the vehicle is infringing on the pedestrian zone, but, as a pedestrian, you still need to be vigilant and retain an awareness of your surroundings. I've seen countless examples of people walking along while wearing headphones, or engaged in phone conversations at the expense of being aware of what's happening around them.

I'm not blaming the victim here, but whether you are in the right or in the wrong, an incident involving a pedestrian and a vehicle will always end up badly for the pedestrian.

Sorry I don't agree with you here at all. In one sentence you say "an incident involving a pedestrian and a vehicle will always end up badly for the pedestrian", and then elsewhere you say it's OK for trucks to " occasionally infringe on the sidewalk"?

I'm sorry, the pedestrian area is the pedestrian area, and given the risks and dangers to pedestrians from any infringement, I think installing bollards to prevent any such infringement is entirely justified.

It's the responsibility of the truck driver to navigate the corner properly even if there are bollards.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by MaxHeadroom

Tunnel will never "pay for itself" and won't handle all trucks, as dangerous goods would not be permitted through it. Plus the existence of the LRT tunnel in the same area now complicates a truck tunnel to the point where it may not be feasible at all.

City of Ottawa dropped the ball for many years on this problem, didn't follow through with the Vanier Parkway extension, doesn't allow trucks on Vanier Parkway/St. Patrick which would be safer than downtown, and now there really is no solution that won't upset anyone. Even if a bridge is built in east and or west, traffic will take the shortest route anyway.

The LRT tunnel ends at Ottawa U, well West of the proposed tunnel.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Sorry I don't agree with you here at all. In one sentence you say "an incident involving a pedestrian and a vehicle will always end up badly for the pedestrian", and then elsewhere you say it's OK for trucks to " occasionally infringe on the sidewalk"?

I'm sorry, the pedestrian area is the pedestrian area, and given the risks and dangers to pedestrians from any infringement, I think installing bollards to prevent any such infringement is entirely justified.

It's the responsibility of the truck driver to navigate the corner properly even if there are bollards.

I don't think I actually said it was OK for trucks to roll over the sidewalk - I was saying that trucks do, on occasion, roll over the sidewalk. It happens. It can be for a variety of reasons ranging from bad driving to bad street design to traffic conditions at that instant. You are absolutely right that the driver has the responsibility to avoid that infringement onto the curb, but we all know that doesn't always happen.

My point is that installing immovable bollards at an intersection where truck traffic is common could make the problem worse. If the bollards are there, a truck WILL hit it, with the worst outcomes being either a) a broken bollard, b) a broken bollard and an injured bystander or c) a trailer being stuck on the bollard, which would require a significant and lengthy extraction operation that will effectively shut down the intersection. Not to mention that the existence of bollards could create a false sense of security for pedestrians.

Make no mistake - if bollards are installed they will absolutely be hit. My position is that installing bollards will be more troublesome than not doing it.

[J.OT13]

It's impossible for an 18 wheeler to make a 90 degree turn and not infringe on the sidewalk on occasion. Just not doable. Of course, it's a complete jackassery for a city like Ottawa to have hundreds of 18 wheelers going through downtown and making 90 degree turns. We have to have a direct route between highway 50 and the Queensway.

No one can honestly expect that the truck tunnel will pay itself through tolls, just like the Confederation Line won't pay for itself through transit ridership. The tunnel is about making the city safer, nicer, cleaner and more liveable. With the Ontario government's 130 billion dollar infrastructure fund, I have no doubt we will get phase 2 of the Confederation Line, the truck tunnel (assuming it is feasible) and then some.

[Kitchissippi]

lastly it was asked if there could be any discussion on diversifying the truck route by allowing some trucks to use the Vanier Parkway. There was no commitment to follow-up this item further.

They could do this tomorrow. Why do we keep on letting trucks zigzag though a high pedestrian area when they could turn on St Patrick and on to the Vanier Parkway? The NIMBYs preventing this have blood on their hands.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Horus

I don't think I actually said it was OK for trucks to roll over the sidewalk - I was saying that trucks do, on occasion, roll over the sidewalk. It happens. It can be for a variety of reasons ranging from bad driving to bad street design to traffic conditions at that instant. You are absolutely right that the driver has the responsibility to avoid that infringement onto the curb, but we all know that doesn't always happen.

My point is that installing immovable bollards at an intersection where truck traffic is common could make the problem worse. If the bollards are there, a truck WILL hit it, with the worst outcomes being either a) a broken bollard, b) a broken bollard and an injured bystander or c) a trailer being stuck on the bollard, which would require a significant and lengthy extraction operation that will effectively shut down the intersection. Not to mention that the existence of bollards could create a false sense of security for pedestrians.

Make no mistake - if bollards are installed they will absolutely be hit. My position is that installing bollards will be more troublesome than not doing it.

So who cares if the bollards do get hit? If a truck gets stuck on a bollard, that seems a much lest serious outcome than a pedestrian being run over and killed.

Article from the Citizen today on Rideau/Waller. I know it refers to a bus/pedestrian collision but the quote from Coun. Fleury is odd.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...nd-waller-safe

Is the intersection of Rideau and Waller safe?
MICHAEL WOODS More from Michael Woods
Published on: August 13, 2014Last Updated: August 13, 2014 7:33 PM EDT


Tuesday evening, a 56-year-old man suffered head injuries when he was struck by an OC Transpo bus just before 8:30 p.m. He was in stable condition upon arrival at hospital, according to paramedics.

At the same intersection in February, 26-year-old Yvonne Hendrikx was struck and killed by a transport truck. A pedestrian memorial marker is erected on a pole near where she was hit.

But the intersection’s mix of truck, bus, car, bicycle and pedestrian traffic can be dangerous.

Rideau-Vanier Coun. Mathieu Fleury said that every time an incident such as Tuesday’s occurs, city traffic staff conduct an analysis, looking at factors such as the timing of traffic signals and vehicle speed.

“It’s important for us … to respond to those concerns and make sure that crossings that are challenging, like that one, become safer,” Fleury said.

The pedestrian crossings will get an upgrade this fall. As part of the Rideau Street renewal, the crosswalks will be repainted different colours, instead of the current all-white markers.

“If it’s very clear where the pedestrian is supposed to be, then it’s safer for the pedestrian. It defines that area, and for a driver it makes it a lot less comfortable to be in that area,” Fleury said.

But there is no pedestrian crosswalk from the east side of Waller across Rideau Street, because of the amount of interprovincial truck traffic that takes the route from the Queensway to Quebec.

That’s where Diego Palma, a sales associate at NRML, a clothing store at the southwest corner of Rideau and Waller, said he sees the most jaywalking happen. He said he has seen numerous near-misses involving pedestrians on Rideau Street.

“One side of the road that doesn’t have a crosswalk and the other side does, so that’s kind of confusing. Maybe if we could somehow fix that up, it would be all good,” he said. “The bus lane is also the bike lane, so that’s a little sketchy.”

Palma said he didn’t see the man struck on Tuesday but heard it happen. He said witnesses told him the man was jaywalking. Photos show the man being treated by paramedics on the west side of the intersection, not the east side where there’s no crosswalk.

“If you follow the rules of the road and the crosswalks, you probably won’t get hit,” he said.

Fleury said once a solution is found for diverting the truck traffic from downtown, a crosswalk can be installed on the east side of the intersection.

There’s a $750,000 feasibility study underway looking at a possible truck tunnel under Sandy Hill and Lowertown.

mwoods@ottawacitizen.com

twitter.com/michaelrwoods

That's bogus. Of course a crosswalk could be installed on the east side now. They might have to change the light cycles so that pedestrians crossing and right-turning trucks would not be allowed at the same time, but that's not impossible.

Don't get me wrong- I think a truck tunnel is needed. But that's not to say that no improvements can be made until a tunnel is in place.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Horus

It would seem a much simpler solution would be to simply demarcate a zone on the corner and warn pedestrians to be aware of trucks turning.

It would also be nice if the police would police that corner, including ticketing truck drivers with unmarked overlength loads and agressive driving habits.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MaxHeadroom

Tunnel will never "pay for itself" and won't handle all trucks, as dangerous goods would not be permitted through it. Plus the existence of the LRT tunnel in the same area now complicates a truck tunnel to the point where it may not be feasible at all.

City of Ottawa dropped the ball for many years on this problem, didn't follow through with the Vanier Parkway extension, doesn't allow trucks on Vanier Parkway/St. Patrick which would be safer than downtown, and now there really is no solution that won't upset anyone. Even if a bridge is built in east and or west, traffic will take the shortest route anyway.

I would have been very surprised if the tunnel paid for itself, it's quite rare for infrastructure do that.

Dangerous goods only make up about 5% of the truck traffic. It would be quite simple to have an exemption system allowing those trucks to use a surface route.

If a bridge is built in the east or west, traffic could be forced to use that route by banning trucks from King Edward Avenue. Obviously a tunnel is a better solution, though.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

So who cares if the bollards do get hit? If a truck gets stuck on a bollard, that seems a much lest serious outcome than a pedestrian being run over and killed.

Don't get me wrong- I think a truck tunnel is needed. But that's not to say that no improvements can be made until a tunnel is in place.

Thing is, pedestrians get run over 2-3 times a year but trucks getting stuck on bollards might happen every other day, causing major traffic delays.

Obviously there's no acceptable amount of times we can run people over, but bollards are not the solution. If anything it could be event more dangerous by damaging the trucks or maybe even flipping them over (extreme scenario).

[acottawa]

feds should just build the new bridge unilaterally

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Thing is, pedestrians get run over 2-3 times a year but trucks getting stuck on bollards might happen every other day, causing major traffic delays.

Obviously there's no acceptable amount of times we can run people over, but bollards are not the solution. If anything it could be event more dangerous by damaging the trucks or maybe even flipping them over (extreme scenario).

I think you'd find the number of trucks hitting the bollards would quickly diminish. Nothing harder to justify than hitting a stationary object at slow speed. And any driver stupid enough to get his truck hung up on one should face a dangerous driving charge. Those bollards are usually set back from the curb a bit. Getting your truck on top of one demonstrates a dangerous disregard for what is supposed to be a pedestrian-only area.

It happens frequently now because it's hard for cops to police that area. What are they going to do? Repeatedly pull over large trucks on Rideau during rush hour? Not happening. And drivers factor that into their choice of route and expectations of being caught. Bollards don't care. Drivers know that. They'll adjust. Whether that's taking a different route, or trucking companies sending shorter trucks, or drivers taking the corner slower and wider. I don't care.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RTWAP

I think you'd find the number of trucks hitting the bollards would quickly diminish. Nothing harder to justify than hitting a stationary object at slow speed. .

Yippers. Try explaining this kind of damage to your truck to your boss. Not fun.

It kind of sucks to say this but they are likely less attentive to pedestrians because of the expectation that they will move out of the way. A bollard won't jump out of the way of a turning truck.