WHAT!!! No Bus Pull Over Lanes on New Fanshawe Pkway Widening

[Dupcheck]

What is wrong with our City of London transportation department? Are they smoking the Belladona?

They just build a brand new road widening on Fanshawe Pkway E. from Adelaide to Highbury, and they did not put any bus pull over/pocket lanes!!!
What is wrong with them. They had all the space and the chance to do it!
Why do they take shortcuts? They should be held accountable for this type of malicious behaviour that is poisoning our streets over and over again.
It happened with the Wonderland expansion, Wharncliffe rd at university rebuild without bike lanes, no bus pull over lane/pockets, come one students needed them, space not an issue, no go. etc etc....same mentality every time, what gives?.

What deranged city official approves these every single time? This is ridiculous. I almost feel it is purposely done! Some one is getting the kickbacks here!

[jammer139]

Incompetence at a PhD level on part of planning dept and engineering.

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

What is wrong with our City of London transportation department? Are they smoking the Belladona?

They just build a brand new road widening on Fanshawe Pkway E. from Adelaide to Highbury, and they did not put any bus pull over/pocket lanes!!!
What is wrong with them. They had all the space and the chance to do it!
Why do they take shortcuts? They should be held accountable for this type of malicious behaviour that is poisoning our streets over and over again.
It happened with the Wonderland expansion, Wharncliffe rd at university rebuild without bike lanes, no bus pull over lane/pockets, come one students needed them, space not an issue, no go. etc etc....same mentality every time, what gives?.

What deranged city official approves these every single time? This is ridiculous. I almost feel it is purposely done! Some one is getting the kickbacks here!

[haljackey]

The Commissioners and Southdale projects also didn't include bus bays.

I would assume they may come later as there might be a larger traffic demand to warrant them on 4 lane roads.

However I agree they should have just been built in the first place.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by haljackey

The Commissioners and Southdale projects also didn't include bus bays.

I would assume they may come later as there might be a larger traffic demand to warrant them on 4 lane roads.

However I agree they should have just been built in the first place.

All bus pull-out lanes do is slow down transit service. Yes, buses do have the right-of-way and vehicles need to yield, but in actuality, this doesn't happen that well, and the bus can be waiting for 10 to 30 seconds per stop trying to enter the traffic lane. think of on a really busy street with fairly high speeds. The bus driver likely will wait for a gap in traffic before trying to merge.

If the City is trying to promote transit as a viable alternative of transportation, then speeding up transit (even a little bit) needs to be a priority.

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

All bus pull-out lanes do is slow down transit service. Yes, buses do have the right-of-way and vehicles need to yield, but in actuality, this doesn't happen that well, and the bus can be waiting for 10 to 30 seconds per stop trying to enter the traffic lane. think of on a really busy street with fairly high speeds. The bus driver likely will wait for a gap in traffic before trying to merge.

If the City is trying to promote transit as a viable alternative of transportation, then speeding up transit (even a little bit) needs to be a priority.

I disagree with your logic! How many vehicles back up and create a dangerous situation when the buss holds them up? How much more pollution is created due to the cars being stuck behind the bus? You need bus bays especially on busy streets. How about when bus drivers stop to get a coffee for minutes at a time? Best designed cities out there have bus bays to pull over to the side properly.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

I disagree with your logic! How many vehicles back up and create a dangerous situation when the buss holds them up? How much more pollution is created due to the cars being stuck behind the bus? You need bus bays especially on busy streets. How about when bus drivers stop to get a coffee for minutes at a time? Best designed cities out there have bus bays to pull over to the side properly.

I agree that where there are designated stops where bus drivers can use a washroom or grab a coffee a pullout is needed.

At any other stops, the pullouts just add delay for the transit vehicle.

It's also in alignment with London's Smart Moves 2030 Transportation Plan:

https://www.london.ca/residents/Road...tion-Plan.aspx

In that plan, there is a target to get transit mode share from 12.5% up to 20% and for auto trips to go from 73.5% down to 60%. Helping making transit have travel times more competitive to driving is something that will make it a more viable option and change mode shares.

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I agree that where there are designated stops where bus drivers can use a washroom or grab a coffee a pullout is needed.

At any other stops, the pullouts just add delay for the transit vehicle.

It's also in alignment with London's Smart Moves 2030 Transportation Plan:

https://www.london.ca/residents/Road...tion-Plan.aspx

In that plan, there is a target to get transit mode share from 12.5% up to 20% and for auto trips to go from 73.5% down to 60%. Helping making transit have travel times more competitive to driving is something that will make it a more viable option and change mode shares.

The Taxpayers, pretty much all of the drivers out there going and coming from work are being burdened by the buses every day. It is not fair to us either that you would like to speed up buses and slow down the cars. Not everyone has the option to take the bus to work.

I am not sure that most of the bus riders are contributing that much $ towards the taxes, but that is a different topic. My point is, if you are going to implement solutions do them right, not by cutting corners as we are doing with our new roads. Also there is no need to punish the taxpayers with excuses about proper execution.

Talking about transit delays, how about the overpasses much needed on train tracks ei. Adelaide st. Richmond st. etc...? A 20 to 30 second merging delay from a proper bus bay is nothing compared to 20 minutes train delay that the city gets many times a day.

This is just our city taking the easy way out with useless excuses...

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

All bus pull-out lanes do is slow down transit service. Yes, buses do have the right-of-way and vehicles need to yield, but in actuality, this doesn't happen that well, and the bus can be waiting for 10 to 30 seconds per stop trying to enter the traffic lane. think of on a really busy street with fairly high speeds. The bus driver likely will wait for a gap in traffic before trying to merge.

If the City is trying to promote transit as a viable alternative of transportation, then speeding up transit (even a little bit) needs to be a priority.

A bus bay may delay a bus an average of 5-10 seconds per stop. While these do compound it's not enough to deter usage. Frequency is what matters.

For instance, if there's only one route on the road and 30 minute frequencies between buses, it might not be cost-effective to put them in. If frequency was increased to 15 mins or so and/or included more routes, then they might be valuable as the flow of traffic will be disrupted more.

[ssiguy]

Bus-bays were promoted as a transit improvement when in reality there do nothing but slow transit down. It requires the bus to pull in and out as opposed to just staying on the road and un/loading passengers.

Either the car has to go around the bus or the bus has to go around the cars and seeing the car is probably carrying 1 or 2 people and the bus 10 or 20, it seems only fair that one person should take precendent to the many on the bus.

[jammer139]

Bus bays make total sense on 2 lane roads. On 4 lanes roads Bus bays make sense at strategic major intersections where large volumes of passengers board and the buses stop for extended periods of time. Elsewhere on 4 lane roads I would agree that they are not needed.

[tyeman200]

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

The Taxpayers, pretty much all of the drivers out there going and coming from work are being burdened by the buses every day. It is not fair to us either that you would like to speed up buses and slow down the cars. Not everyone has the option to take the bus to work.

I am not sure that most of the bus riders are contributing that much $ towards the taxes, but that is a different topic. My point is, if you are going to implement solutions do them right, not by cutting corners as we are doing with our new roads. Also there is no need to punish the taxpayers with excuses about proper execution.

Talking about transit delays, how about the overpasses much needed on train tracks ei. Adelaide st. Richmond st. etc...? A 20 to 30 second merging delay from a proper bus bay is nothing compared to 20 minutes train delay that the city gets many times a day.

This is just our city taking the easy way out with useless excuses...

Buses have never been a burden on me when I drive. If a bus stops, simply drive past it. Bus bays do slow down buses, I've seen it a ton at the Wellington/Wilkins intersection. When you have idiot drivers who don't merge before the street turns into two lanes, buses can be sitting there for more than a minute.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by haljackey

A bus bay may delay a bus an average of 5-10 seconds per stop. While these do compound it's not enough to deter usage. Frequency is what matters.

5-10 seconds per stop adds up. And delays affect frequency.

For example, for a route with 60 minute run time in each direction, 8 buses would be required to provide 15 minute frequency. If there are 40 stops in each direction and there is a 7.5 second delay at each stop, then the total run time increases 10 minutes, resulting in frequency decline from 15 minutes to 16 minutes 15 seconds, a reduction in the capacity of the route by 8 percent, causing more overcrowding.

One bus would be needed to be added to the route to bring its frequency back up to 15 minutes, which would increase operating costs significantly, which would have to be covered with either higher fares or increased property taxes. Plus, there is the inconvience to the bus riders, who have to endure buses whose average speeds are reduced by 8 percent, buses that were already significantly slower than cars to begin with.

Keep in mind, when buses are delayed, the amount of people waiting at the next stop increases, causing the buses to be even slower. When buses are more overcrowded, they need more time to let passengers off too. So the speed/capacity reduction in this example could be even higher than 8 percent.

Bus bays, if they result in delays, could be very detrimental to bus operations, make the service less attractive, cause higher fares, and increase the burden on taxpayers. Bus bays really should be designed in such a way that do not interfere with bus operations and avoid incoveniencing riders, which I think is entirely possible. For example, a bus bay that is long enough might actually allow the bus to bypass cars waiting at a red light and reach the stop and let pessangers on/off earlier. But more often than not, it is not about buses or the riders at all, which results in problems for everyone, even the taxpayers who don't use transit.

[FazDeH]

Originally Posted by Doady

5-10 seconds per stop adds up. And delays affect frequency.

For example, for a route with 60 minute run time in each direction, 8 buses would be required to provide 15 minute frequency. If there are 40 stops in each direction and there is a 7.5 second delay at each stop, then the total run time increases 10 minutes, resulting in frequency decline from 15 minutes to 16 minutes 15 seconds, a reduction in the capacity of the route by 8 percent, causing more overcrowding.

One bus would be needed to be added to the route to bring its frequency back up to 15 minutes, which would increase operating costs significantly, which would have to be covered with either higher fares or increased property taxes. Plus, there is the inconvience to the bus riders, who have to endure buses whose average speeds are reduced by 8 percent, buses that were already significantly slower than cars to begin with.

Keep in mind, when buses are delayed, the amount of people waiting at the next stop increases, causing the buses to be even slower. When buses are more overcrowded, they need more time to let passengers off too. So the speed/capacity reduction in this example could be even higher than 8 percent.

Bus bays, if they result in delays, could be very detrimental to bus operations, make the service less attractive, cause higher fares, and increase the burden on taxpayers. Bus bays really should be designed in such a way that do not interfere with bus operations and avoid incoveniencing riders, which I think is entirely possible. For example, a bus bay that is long enough might actually allow the bus to bypass cars waiting at a red light and reach the stop and let pessangers on/off earlier. But more often than not, it is not about buses or the riders at all, which results in problems for everyone, even the taxpayers who don't use transit.

Very well said.

I have been living away from Canada in Europe for over a year and the only places with bus bays are high volume intersections and even then - they are rare. I know that is comparing apples to oranges due to the growth patterns of Canadian/European cities but realistically when you want to make a mass transit method more appealing to the masses you have to make buses a priority on the roads. Furthermore - Fanshawe road has 2 lanes going each way? It shouldn't inconvenience drivers to switch lanes to pass a bus pulled over on the side of the road momentarily.

[haljackey]

I've given this issue some good thought and I now agree with the decision to not add bus bays going forward.

I think exceptions should be made in some cases, such as transfer points. A good example is Warncliffe and Base Line, where buses will wait until a set time to leave (unless running late). If bus bays existed here, it would help move more people through the intersection as a bus isn't sitting idle blocking a lane for several minutes.

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I've given this issue some good thought and I now agree with the decision to not add bus bays going forward.

I think exceptions should be made in some cases, such as transfer points. A good example is Warncliffe and Base Line, where buses will wait until a set time to leave (unless running late). If bus bays existed here, it would help move more people through the intersection as a bus isn't sitting idle blocking a lane for several minutes.

Also very much need a bus bay at South East Corner of Adelaide and Fanshawe Parkway (eastbound on Fanshawe), where a bus would idle for 10 minutes/each time several times a day waiting for its driver to get his/her coffee from the Esso/Tim Hortons gas station, blocking the intersection and creating a great deal of a traffic mess so close to the intersection. I am sure there are lots of examples similar to this that thousands of drivers would agree here.