Tucson Development Thread

[Leo the Dog]

Tucson is still at a manageable size (geographically) to develop a great network of streetcars. Instead of a huge crosstown freeway, just create 2 or 3 east/west streetcar lines with adequate park n' ride locations.

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

yeah, those freeways really messed up Phoenix...grade-separated intersections are a solution? please! kino and aviation parkways are not the answer...more red lights are exactly what Tucson doesn't need.

What? Did you read my post? Grade seperated intersections ELIMINATE red lights! What makes you think that they create more red lights??? Do you know what a grade seperated intersection is?? And Aviation Highway, although not perfect, is a GREAT way for eastsiders to get across town to downtown quick. I used it everyday on my way to work near the UofA or when I was headed downtown.

Are you suggesting freeways are the only answer?? Do you realize how many people would lose their homes and businesses if that were the only answer??? Not to mention the money! Plus you'd cut the city in two. All that concrete mess they have in phx has just turned it into a mini L.A.! Even L.A.(where I live now) has swore off new freeways!

I'm not saying my answer is the best one, but it sure as hell beats putting up a giant concrete slab through the center of town!

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Tucson is still at a manageable size (geographically) to develop a great network of streetcars. Instead of a huge crosstown freeway, just create 2 or 3 east/west streetcar lines with adequate park n' ride locations.

Tucson is not a managebale size. The intersection of Sunrise and Sabino Canyon to Valencia and Mission is a 22 mile drive. That doesn't scream manageable to me. It's time for Tucson to lose this idea that this is a small town. That's 95 percent of the reason that infrastructure in this town is as inadequate as it is.

I don't understand why some Tucsonans imagine that a freeway means having a ten lane monstrosity that will create a black haze over the city.

Again, you cannot force people to ride public transit by prohibiting the construction of a freeway. You will just create more and more congestion that will eventually cause Speedway, Grant, Broadway, and 22nd to be as wide a freeways, just with traffic lights, and a 35-45 MPH speed limit.

[kaneui]

For the immediate future, it looks like there will be two publications covering downtown Tucson--the revived Downtown Tucsonan with a September issue featuring the upcoming performing arts season, and Zocalo Tucson Magazine, which published its first issue this summer:

http://www.downtowntucson.org/down/DT9.09.pdf

http://www.thezmag.com/


And from Zocalo Tucson, here are a few pics of the Santa Rita Hotel demolition last week, making way for a new 6-story UniSource headquarters building:


August 26 and 27


August 28--note the recent streetscape improvements on Scott Ave.
(photos: David Olsen)

[BrandonJXN]

When will renderings of the building be made public?

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

I don't understand why some Tucsonans imagine that a freeway means having a ten lane monstrosity that will create a black haze over the city.

And I don't understand why some people are so resistant to other solutions to traffic problems other than freeways?? Freeways are not the end all to traffic nightmares, they can be nightmares in themselves. All one has to do is look at the gridlock in most major cities with extensive freeway systems.

It's time people start thinking outside the box when trying to come up with solutions to our transportation problems. The age of just building freeways to solve congestion is on it's last leg. Like it or not mass public transportation will be the next big solution in the future, especially with the whole green movement.

[kaneui]

After HUD's rejection of Tucson's request for $1.6M to restore the vacant Performing Arts Center, the city is looking for other funds to restore the downtown structure:



(photo: Jamie Manser)


Performing Arts Center, aka Cursillo – Cursed?
By Dolly Spalding
Zocalo Tucson Magazine
August 5, 2009

The fact that the mayor and city council unanimously voted on June 2 to ask the federal department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) for $1,657,320 to finish the renovation of the Performing Arts Center (Cursillo Project) was reason for celebration in Tucson's performing arts circles. At a public hearing convened for the purpose of soliciting comments shortly before the formal request for the funds was submitted, optimism and enthusiasm were at levels not experienced in almost a decade, when the center was shuttered by the city due to structural and administrative difficulties. Many of those in attendance at the hearing were representing performing arts organizations, and their statements were collectively in support of getting it off the list of abandoned places and back into productive usefulness.

The building, formerly part of All Saints Church, sits forlorn and fenced off at the SW corner of 14th Street and 6th Avenue, practically adjacent to the historic and magnificently restored Temple of Music and Art. A memo dated June 18, 2009, from the City of Tucson, in the matter-of-fact language of bureaucracy, stated: "The Mayor and Council voted on June 2, 2009, to submit the Cursillo Project (Performing Arts Center) as the City of Tucson's Community Development Block Grant-Recovery project for our entitlement allocation of $1,657,320. That project was submitted to Housing and Urban Development on June 5 and rejected because its primary service area was not confined to low- to moderate-income population and its purpose was perceived as recreational in intent."

The former locus of award-winning theater and dance performances by a variety of well-known and respected Tucson arts promoters and organizations is a graceful, previously elegant space showcasing a soaring vaulted ceiling, archways, clerestory windows, and a lobby complete with a mural that is perfect for welcoming theatergoers. It has a newly refurbished basement, rubble-filled walls replaced with steel-reinforced concrete, and areas for spacious dressing rooms and a scene shop. It's ideal, except for the fact that the more than one million dollars required to upgrade, polish, clean up and finish repairs will not be forthcoming.

A tour hosted by Parks and Recreation attracted several dozen curiosity seekers eager to view the legendary performance space and to witness its condition. Trooping down the spiral staircase, or taking the elevator, to check out the basement, peering at the expanse from the dusty tech booth, poking into nooks and crevices and exclaiming over the superb acoustics, the crowd welcomed Sally Van Slyke and her son Peter, long-time champions (along with the late Clague Van Slyke) of theater in general and in particular, the Performing Arts Center. The family can only be heartbroken at the turn of events.

The City Council and Parks and Recreation honestly thought they had a chance to revitalize this valuable asset, to have yet another venue for emerging and established arts organizations that could easily integrate into downtown's district of theaters, restaurants, art galleries and museums - all the cultural amenities that contribute to the overall aesthetic character of inner-city Tucson. Perhaps what is needed now is an angel or patron who might want a theater with their name on it. A public subscription effort such as was done with the Fox could work or possibly an as-yet-untried political plan. Some who vied to be on steering committees to help with marketing or managing the facility or its potential users would no doubt be willing to explore other options for this pathetic orphan, and the City Councilors who voted to request the funding are certainly pro-Cursillo, but no real solution has as yet been suggested by anyone, not Parks and Recreation, not any other government entity. Further deterioration will definitely occur with further neglect, thereby making restoration an even more remote possibility. It's a grievous, sad situation. Adopt-a-building, anyone?

[kaneui]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

When will renderings of the building be made public?

With construction probably not starting until mid-2010, it may be several more months before we see any renders. They announced it will include ground-floor retail (preferably built to the sidewalk), so let's hope it has a more urban than suburban design.

[Classical in Phoenix]

Originally Posted by NIXPHX77

Chez Nous moved to Grand Ave about 2 years ago, fyi.

I know this isn't a Phoenix thread, but since we're comparing I will add this. I thought I had read some where that Chez Nous had been closed due to some violation of it's liquor license at it's new location.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by aznate27

What? Did you read my post? Grade seperated intersections ELIMINATE red lights! What makes you think that they create more red lights??? Do you know what a grade seperated intersection is?? And Aviation Highway, although not perfect, is a GREAT way for eastsiders to get across town to downtown quick. I used it everyday on my way to work near the UofA or when I was headed downtown.

Are you suggesting freeways are the only answer?? Do you realize how many people would lose their homes and businesses if that were the only answer??? Not to mention the money! Plus you'd cut the city in two. All that concrete mess they have in phx has just turned it into a mini L.A.! Even L.A.(where I live now) has swore off new freeways!

I'm not saying my answer is the best one, but it sure as hell beats putting up a giant concrete slab through the center of town!

what is the difference between a "concrete slab" and a bunch of asphalt that we already have? actually, concrete generates less of a heat island effect so, um, it is a better idea.

i don't really care what a "grade separated intersection" is as long as it's still an "intersetion". tucson is full of crack-pot ideas that simply are an attempt at social engineering. streetcars? cross-town monorail? please. costly and with the density per mile so low, it would be vastly underutilized. if tucson wants to "engineer" these kinds of solutions, they should "engineer" in-fill development, dissuade outlying development, thereby increasing the per capita density. THEN your solutions might work. but tucson is so bass-ackwards, they will never put the one foot before the other to make it happen. tucson is a lost cause suffering in mediocrity and NIMBY-itis.

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

what is the difference between a "concrete slab" and a bunch of asphalt that we already have? actually, concrete generates less of a heat island effect so, um, it is a better idea.

i don't really care what a "grade separated intersection" is as long as it's still an "intersetion". tucson is full of crack-pot ideas that simply are an attempt at social engineering. streetcars? cross-town monorail? please. costly and with the density per mile so low, it would be vastly underutilized. if tucson wants to "engineer" these kinds of solutions, they should "engineer" in-fill development, dissuade outlying development, thereby increasing the per capita density. THEN your solutions might work. but tucson is so bass-ackwards, they will never put the one foot before the other to make it happen. tucson is a lost cause suffering in mediocrity and NIMBY-itis.

I knew it. You have NO Idea what a grade seperated intersection is, which is genius because you posted a comment on something you know nothing about. That's brilliant Let me school you so your next post will be more informed:

A grade seperated intersection allows one flow a traffic to go UNDER the intersection while keeping the top half with lights. Basically it's the same concept as a freeway on/off ramp, without the freeway. They look 100 times better than a concrete slab and displace 90% less people and businesses. If you did this at the key intersections down Grant Road you'd create continuous flow down Grant Rd. from the westside to the eastside with limited lights. This along with a light rail system down the same route and city buses would give people 3 different options to get across town. This could be implemented also on Speedway Blvd, Broadway Blvd, and Golflinks Rd.

I lived in Phx for nearly 3 years. I lived in midcity and worked from Glendale to Scottsdale. I hated commuting anywhere in that city! The freeways were always congested and half the time I took city streets because it was less stress or took the same amount of time as the freeways.

And I LOVE how you mentioned infill and doing less for sprawl, like phx did so well in this department??? Tucson already has infill programs in place ( as well as some projects already completed) and has recognized the need to reduce urban sprawl, something Phx should have done 3 million people ago!

Tucson actually has a soul, has 200 years of rich history, and true potential. Phx is just a souless, no history city that has already loss it's identity. Why do you think everyone calls it a mini L.A.? No one compares Tucson to other cities, because like it or hate it, Tucson is unique.

[CANUC]

Originally Posted by aznate27

...I lived in Phx for nearly 3 years...I hated commuting anywhere in that city!...like phx did so well in this department???...Phx should have done 3 million people ago!...Phx is just a souless, no history city that has already loss it's identity. Why do you think everyone calls it a mini L.A.?..

I normally stay off this thread but just curious; does all of the discussion of development in Tucson on the Tucson Development Thread revolve around bashing Phoenix? Yep…there must be a lot going on down in the old pueblo.

Oh I quitely forgot to tell you this, the guy your arguing with shows his located in Houston.

[kaneui]

Rialto deal on lease halts long dispute
ARIZONA DAILY STAR
09.01.2009

The Rialto Theatre Foundation agreed to a 12-month lease for its green room and auxiliary space surrounding the theater, ending — for a least a year — the theater's long-running dispute with landlords Scott Stiteler and Don Martin. Rialto Board President Michael Crawford said the theater signed the 12-month lease for $2,800 a month. He hopes the two sides can agree to a long-term deal in the next year. "Things got way out of hand," Crawford said, of the highly public conflict over the lease which included the theater being served with an eviction notice.

Crawford added the lease gives everybody "breathing room" to find a "long-term permanent solution" for the space. Stiteler and Martin had been seeking about $4,600 a month for the space, while the theater had offered $2,600 Long-term use of the disputed spaces by the theater was once included in a large-scale plan offered by Stiteler and Martin for redevelopment of the east end of downtown. But as those plans evolved, in the face of a failing economy, the Rialto became an opponent. The owners then tried to evict the theater, after their redevelopment plans were delayed by the City Council. The Rialto prevailed in court, blocking an immediate eviction, but was given until Aug. 18 to vacate the space. It was later given an extension by Stiteler and Martin until Sept. 1.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by aznate27

Tucson actually has a soul, has 200 years of rich history, and true potential. Phx is just a souless, no history city that has already loss it's identity. Why do you think everyone calls it a mini L.A.? No one compares Tucson to other cities, because like it or hate it, Tucson is unique.

I would have let your little rant go... but then you threw out this last paragraph. You call him out for not knowing what he's talking about in regards to grade-separated intersections... then you state Phoenix (and LA!) are souless, no-history cities... which proves you don't know what you are talking about. LA has more history in it's little finger than Tucson could ever hope for... just look at the "Noirish LA" thread in Found City Photos. And every city has their own unique history, especially Phoenix. I had first hand insight into only one aspect of Phoenix's history when I worked on the construction of the light rail and we came across dozens of Hohokam canals and burials, complete with skeletons and pottery, jewelery, tools, etc. And that's just some of Phoenix's prehistoric history. (see my photo thread link in my sig if you want to see a bit of Phoenix's remaining history.)

BTW, somethingfast, and aznate, Grand Avenue is a good example of grade-separated intersections in Phoenix. There are about 6 or 8 throughout the metro area. Although Grand created 6-lane intersections, so it's even better they were separated.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by aznate27

I knew it. You have NO Idea what a grade seperated intersection is, which is genius because you posted a comment on something you know nothing about. That's brilliant Let me school you so your next post will be more informed:

A grade seperated intersection allows one flow a traffic to go UNDER the intersection while keeping the top half with lights. Basically it's the same concept as a freeway on/off ramp, without the freeway. They look 100 times better than a concrete slab and displace 90% less people and businesses. If you did this at the key intersections down Grant Road you'd create continuous flow down Grant Rd. from the westside to the eastside with limited lights. This along with a light rail system down the same route and city buses would give people 3 different options to get across town. This could be implemented also on Speedway Blvd, Broadway Blvd, and Golflinks Rd.

I lived in Phx for nearly 3 years. I lived in midcity and worked from Glendale to Scottsdale. I hated commuting anywhere in that city! The freeways were always congested and half the time I took city streets because it was less stress or took the same amount of time as the freeways.

And I LOVE how you mentioned infill and doing less for sprawl, like phx did so well in this department??? Tucson already has infill programs in place ( as well as some projects already completed) and has recognized the need to reduce urban sprawl, something Phx should have done 3 million people ago!

Tucson actually has a soul, has 200 years of rich history, and true potential. Phx is just a souless, no history city that has already loss it's identity. Why do you think everyone calls it a mini L.A.? No one compares Tucson to other cities, because like it or hate it, Tucson is unique.

dude, i was born in tucson and lived there half my life. i dont need lecturing on the city and its problems. they are obvious and many. yes, tucson is unique and perhaps charming like your crazy old uncle. funny how you to go to LA for work and everyone i knows that likes to eat every day eventually leaves the Ol' Pueblo. i admire your passion but i just dont think your ideas will ever happen let alone fill the need.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by CANUC

I normally stay off this thread but just curious; does all of the discussion of development in Tucson on the Tucson Development Thread revolve around bashing Phoenix? Yep…there must be a lot going on down in the old pueblo.

Oh I quitely forgot to tell you this, the guy your arguing with shows his located in Houston.

I had to respond to this one.

I've visited the Phoenix threads probably equally as much as the Tucson threads. Please don't get your panties in a wad, but I've heard more negative comments about Tucson in the Phoenix threads than vice versa. As a matter of fact, I believe it was some (not all) Phoenix posters who initiated the negative comments that have been posted lately in regards to the differences between downtown Phoenix and Tucson regarding nightlife.

In addition, I'm sure you're very well aware of how the posters always stay on-topic in the Phoenix threads.

[CANUC]

Originally Posted by azliam

Please don't get your panties in a wad...

Like wise don't get give yourself a wedgy with your thong. Just pointing out to the guy durring his wha-fest that he's harping on Phoenix while arguing with a guy in Houston...get it?

Anyways I'll leave your thread alone since I'm sure kaneui is sick of us skirting acutal development info.

P.S. You gotta admit this most active this thread has been in some time. Kind of fun huh ?

[Vicelord John]

raaaaaahhhhhhh

ANGER!!!!

[azliam]

Originally Posted by CANUC

Like wise don't get give yourself a wedgy with your thong. Just pointing out to the guy durring his wha-fest that he's harping on Phoenix while arguing with a guy in Houston...get it?

Anyways I'll leave your thread alone since I'm sure kaneui is sick of us skirting acutal development info.

P.S. You gotta admit this most active this thread has been in some time. Kind of fun huh ?

Wow...

Panties in a wad and wedgies with your thong. LOL. That is the most active it's been (in that aspect) outside of development info in a long time.

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I would have let your little rant go... but then you threw out this last paragraph. You call him out for not knowing what he's talking about in regards to grade-separated intersections... then you state Phoenix (and LA!) are souless, no-history cities... which proves you don't know what you are talking about. LA has more history in it's little finger than Tucson could ever hope for... just look at the "Noirish LA" thread in Found City Photos. And every city has their own unique history, especially Phoenix. I had first hand insight into only one aspect of Phoenix's history when I worked on the construction of the light rail and we came across dozens of Hohokam canals and burials, complete with skeletons and pottery, jewelery, tools, etc. And that's just some of Phoenix's prehistoric history. (see my photo thread link in my sig if you want to see a bit of Phoenix's remaining history.)

BTW, somethingfast, and aznate, Grand Avenue is a good example of grade-separated intersections in Phoenix. There are about 6 or 8 throughout the metro area. Although Grand created 6-lane intersections, so it's even better they were separated.

I never said L.A. has no soul or history. You need to re-read my post. I said Phx has no soul or any rich history, and that Phx has lost it's identity. Meaning people call Phx a mini L.A., because all it has done is copy all L.A. has to offer, rather than make an image it can call it's own. I LIVE in L.A., so do know what I'm talking about. Of course it has history! And a whole lot of soul for sure! It's been a second home to me since I could walk. I lived here for five years before and came back this year due to work, but Tucson is always my #1.

And when I speak of "history" I wasn't referring to before the city of phx was built. If you want to dig that far back then Tucson has most of North America beat. The base of "A" Mountain is one of the oldest continuously inhabited areas of the U.S., 5,000 years of history.

And as far as not seeing the Houston conection, um, I've got nothing. Sometimes I just assume people bashing Tucson are from Phx, so I get defensive. Tucsonans and Phoenicians don't normally see eye to eye. And my "rants" are just healthy debates, threads can't always be peaches and cream.