PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

I bet you leave games in the 7th inning to beat traffic

This is why we need more transit and development around stadiums. The navy yard and the stadium district will be a lively area if built correctly.

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

This is why we need more transit and development around stadiums. The navy yard and the stadium district will be a lively area if built correctly.

Agree the BSL should extend to the navy yard but beyond that what more transit should be there. There’s already a stop at Pattison that gets heavy use during all events.

I disagree with the other guys comment that downtown stadiums are deadzones. Maybe this was true 20 years ago but cities have made a big comeback since then. Look at Camden yards, the nationals stadium, braves stadium, Seahawks stadium etc as examples. Downtown stadiums can be beneficial to neighborhoods. The thought that they drain neighborhoods is 20+ years old and outdated.

If the Sixers wanted to build I center city arena I’d be cool with it but I’d rather see the sea of parking lots developed personally.

[Skintreesnail]

^^^ light rail down Delaware ave. (Or heavy rail down 95) to the stadiums and navy yard i think is needed. South Philly and northern liberties/fishtown is already densely populated and seeing even more development along the river. I always dreamed that septa would run trains down the high line in south Philly, but that's never going to happen.

If the Sixers decided to move to center city it'd probably be fine, though if they did i think it would be better to build over the Amtrak yards and spur that development. It'd be ultra accessible from transit still and not have the cramped space of 8th and market.

In any case i think developing a 24x7 district around the stadiums is a no-brainer and seems like a better idea then moving the Sixers.

[youngniems]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

I bet you leave games in the 7th inning to beat traffic

Not sure what this means. Because I want the stadiums to remain where they are I leave early because traffic is my biggest concern. First, I don't have a car. Second, I live in South Philly and always take the subway to the stadiums. Third, I have been a life long Philadelphia sports fan and anybody who knows me, knows this. I would never leave a game early.

What I am trying to say is that from an urbanist perspective, having the stadiums in one area, surrounded by other forms of entertainment and well connected to transit is a good thing. We should build off of this. Center City is great and thriving on its own. Downtown stadiums historically have been built to revitalize dying downtowns and have largely failed. (Yes there are a few exceptions to this). Center City doesn't need this.

[bdurk]

I think Wrigleyville is a good example of a downtown stadium area done right. Surrounded by tons of bars and entertainment, with new apartments everywhere. If we could emulate that for the Sixers stadium I think it would be great.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

Agree the BSL should extend to the navy yard but beyond that what more transit should be there. There’s already a stop at Pattison that gets heavy use during all events.

I disagree with the other guys comment that downtown stadiums are deadzones. Maybe this was true 20 years ago but cities have made a big comeback since then. Look at Camden yards, the nationals stadium, braves stadium, Seahawks stadium etc as examples. Downtown stadiums can be beneficial to neighborhoods. The thought that they drain neighborhoods is 20+ years old and outdated.

If the Sixers wanted to build I center city arena I’d be cool with it but I’d rather see the sea of parking lots developed personally.

I didn't say they drain neighborhoods, I said I don't see a benefit of a stadium at 8th & Market (or anywhere in CC). What that area needs is another large mixed-used development with a focus at street level. The hulking Gallery and Convention Center are anything but inviting and make the area feel like a fortress. Adding a stadium would only worsen the effect.

And I'm not suggesting that all downtown arenas are bad, some are done well, like Wrigley Field (though not downtown), but 8th & Market is nothing like Wrigleyville.

If the Galley were demolished and replaced with an integrated mixed-used development, then maybe a stadium at 8th & Market would be an acceptable choice, but I still wouldn't push for it.

[allovertown]

I think there is a big difference between an arena and a stadium. Arenas have a much smaller footprint, seat far fewer people and fit much more easily into the urban fabric. Also arenas are generally much busier in terms of events. The Linc is pretty busy in terms of NFL stadiums and still only hosts a few dozen events a year. Baseball obviously has more games, but other than the 80 baseball games a year they host, other events at baseball stadiums are pretty rare. A new sixers arena between the sixers, a likely WNBA team, and concerts would average multiple events a week.

I think a stadium in Center City is a terrible idea. An arena though has its benefits. I don't think they're a reliable way to revitalize a downtown or anything, so I definitely don't think the city should foot any of the bill so that billionaire owners can double the value of the sixers, but if Josh Harris wants to build an arena on his own dime somewhere in or around center city, I don't think that's a bad thing.

We ended up hosting the DNC anyway obviously, but the fact that the WFC is so far from center city, even with easy transit access was viewed as a negative. Most major cities have a downtown arena for major events like that. I don't think it would be the worst idea for Philly to have one.

As far as 8th and Market goes. I don't think it's a terrible idea. Obviously transit access is unmatched and that area could use an injection of 20 thousand people every couple of nights. I get the concerns of another hulking building in the area, but there's really no reason why an arena has to be like that. They could easily incorporate street facing retail and stuff like that.

Some here may recall that I actually have some inside info into the sixers and their development plans, though at this point, it's a bit out of date. I know that it is feasible to construct an arena at 8th and market without major disturbance to that gimbels building, so it is possible and the sixers have looked into it. But I also know that after the riverfront arena died, 8th and market was not one of the sites where they were focusing their attention.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I didn't say they drain neighborhoods, I said I don't see a benefit of a stadium at 8th & Market (or anywhere in CC). What that area needs is another large mixed-used development with a focus at street level. The hulking Gallery and Convention Center are anything but inviting and make the area feel like a fortress. Adding a stadium would only worsen the effect.

And I'm not suggesting that all downtown arenas are bad, some are done well, like Wrigley Field (though not downtown), but 8th & Market is nothing like Wrigleyville.

If the Galley were demolished and replaced with an integrated mixed-used development, then maybe a stadium at 8th & Market would be an acceptable choice, but I still wouldn't push for it.

Yeah urban malls in general have always seemed like a huge mistake to me. A setup like walnut/chestnut with storefronts facing the street just makes so much more sense.

[TonyTone]

[TK2001]

Philadelphia skyline by Philly SkyGuy, on Flickr

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Yeah urban malls in general have always seemed like a huge mistake to me. A setup like walnut/chestnut with storefronts facing the street just makes so much more sense.

To be fair they are trying hard to turn the Fashion District more than a mall. It has offices. Maybe something crazy like a high end spa would be good or a fitness center.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Great work, Tony! I see you working now with a drone...Sweet!

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Great work, Tony! I see you working now with a drone...Sweet!

Man you already know im bringing heat to the forum now.

Prepare for overhead views of construction sites and the city now.

Also I did this video last night as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvR4QguoD78

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

This pic shows how this area could be transformed into a Central Park. At least, that’s what my eye went too.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Some here may recall that I actually have some inside info into the sixers and their development plans, though at this point, it's a bit out of date. I know that it is feasible to construct an arena at 8th and market without major disturbance to that gimbels building, so it is possible and the sixers have looked into it. But I also know that after the riverfront arena died, 8th and market was not one of the sites where they were focusing their attention.

Any hints on where they were still considering when you had insight? Did they look at/have any thoughts you can share on a buildout around 30th street?

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

This pic shows how this area could be transformed into a Central Park. At least, that’s what my eye went too.

What's weird is the fact that they didn't cap 18th, 19th & 20th St after they clearly half capped both blocks.

Im assuming they didn't want to spend the extra money on installing a ventilation on the tunnel portion due to it already almost being a full tunnel in that area of 676.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

This pic shows how this area could be transformed into a Central Park. At least, that’s what my eye went too.

From the circle down to the Museum could 100% be a full Central Park and if they did so a lake would also have to be built to add to the vibes.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

From the circle down to the Museum could 100% be a full Central Park and if they did so a lake would also have to be built to add to the vibes.

Absolutely. It’d maximize the useable green space. Parkway apartments could be converted to bigger apartment buildings. Put one way streets around all the edges. And they could leave a walkable ‘boulevard’ down the middle to connect the art museum to city hall still.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

From the circle down to the Museum could 100% be a full Central Park and if they did so a lake would also have to be built to add to the vibes.

That would be pretty awesome, and i think the winning bid for redesigning the parkway was proposing something like that. Interested to see what the final design will be but I'll keep my expectations low. I think better integration with the river could replace a lake though, and add some water activities. Instead of a lake I think i would rather see some sort or spray ground/water feature or fountains. The new fountain at love park and city hall and kiddy pool at sister cities are really popular in the summer. I know everyone has different priorities, but getting some more places to cool off in the summer would be nice.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

That would be pretty awesome, and i think the winning bid for redesigning the parkway was proposing something like that. Interested to see what the final design will be but I'll keep my expectations low. I think better integration with the river could replace a lake though, and add some water activities. Instead of a lake I think i would rather see some sort or spray ground/water feature or fountains. The new fountain at love park and city hall and kiddy pool at sister cities are really popular in the summer. I know everyone has different priorities, but getting some more places to cool off in the summer would be nice.

I agree. Can someone mock it up so we can see? We should submit our own design to the mayor. 😁