One of the biggest myths which hurts cities: That schools matter much

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

consultant to advise on getting their kid into a selective public school

My mind is blown. I had no idea that people took this stuff so seriously.

[Chisouthside]

Whitney Young in Chicago, while having selective enrollment, had a secret tier for enrollment from my experience going there. basically if your parents were high enough in the city bureaucracy, cops and firemen included, they would pull some strings to get their kids in there.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

My mind is blown. I had no idea that people took this stuff so seriously.

There are $1,000 an hour consultants advising parents on how to get toddlers into the correct preschool. Parents pay 5-10k prior to the school interview. The school interview consists of multiple adults watching a 2 yo play. The acceptance rates can be below 2%.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Pittsburgh used to have a racial quota system for its magnet system, which was intended in order to keep the school system integrated. Essentially every magnet school was supposed to be 50% black, 50% white/other. However, in practice more black parents always wanted to get into the magnet system than white parents (because the neighborhood schools in black neighborhoods were not as well regarded) meaning the outcome was discriminatory (white parents could usually just get open enrollment anywhere, while black parents were put on waiting lists). The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the system some time in the 2000s (2007, IIRC) and now they attempt to balance on things like free/reduced student lunches instead, though the system is slowly segregating, with some magnets getting heavily white while others become heavily black.

Other than the CAPA portfolio/rehearsal requirement, every other magnet is based upon lottery in the city. However, there are various factors which make you more likely to get into a school. The city is divided into three geographic chunks (East, South, and North/Central) and you get an extra chance to get into a magnet which is in the same area as your residence. You also get additional chances based upon already having a sibling within the school. Finally there's certain programs which have continuance from elementary to middle, or middle to high. So for example since my daughter went to a school with a language focus, she automatically got into the IB middle school program, provided she placed that #1 on her admission.

My understanding is that once you get past the elementary level the requirements for staying in the magnet system become more exacting (can't have worse than a 2.5 GPA, can't have too many unexcused absences, can't be suspended too many times, etc.) which means the real troublemakers get filtered out. I know when my daughter was younger she always had 1-2 kids in her class who acted out and made learning hard for everyone else, but they've all been booted back into the neighborhood schools now, so school is pretty quiet for her.

In Philadelphia, the magnet schools are still fairly well balanced. Until not long ago, Central was almost equally divided between whites, blacks, and asians. I don't know how much effort goes into making it this well balanced, or if it's just a coincidence. That being said, there is a huge influx of middle class Asians coming to Philadelphia from the NYC metro and I suspect they are going to start to put pressure on these ratios, and raise hell if the city does anything to maintain something of a balanced racial demographic. In fact, I just checked and Central is currently about 40% Asian, 30% White, 20% Black, 10% Latino/Mixed. Maybe that flux is already happening, but I would hope the top schools in Philly avoid the mess that's happening in NYC where many of the magnets are close to 100% Asian. I think there are sub 10 black kids per class at Stuyvesant atm.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Maybe that flux is in place, but I would hope the top schools in Philly avoid the mess that's happening in NYC where many of the magnets are close to 100% Asian. I think there are sub 10 black kids per class at Stuyvesant atm.

The three traditional test-in HS in NYC are supermajority Asian, but most selective NYC HS aren't anywhere close to supermajority Asian.

Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech are basically deciding admissions on a single assessment. Those schools are extremely Asian (from about 1930-1980, they were about as Jewish as they're Asian today).

But there are a couple of dozen other highly selective NYC HS, and the only ones with similar demographics are those close to majority Asian neighborhoods. These HS have a variety of admissions standards, but only the traditional three rely on nothing but a single assessment.

Speaking very generally, the more liberal artsy selective HS tend to be whiter and the more math-science HS tend to be more Asian (surprise, surprise). The stereotypical white, affluent Manhattan/Brownstone Brooklyn crowd doesn't attend the traditional three.

The most selective, prestigious HS of all is Hunter College High, which doesn't release demographic info. It also isn't run by NYC schools, but is publicly funded and free. It kind of operates as a quasi-private fiefdom. It's probably a close to even split between Asians and whites, with very small black and Latino populations. They have a 1.5% acceptance rate. 25% of each graduating class attends Ivies, Stanford or MIT, which is a higher share than even Stuy.

[edale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

My mind is blown. I had no idea that people took this stuff so seriously.

The pre-school consultant nonsense is obviously ridiculous, but I know lots of people who took test prep classes or had tutors for Cincinnati high school entrance exams. It's very common, actually.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

In Philadelphia, the magnet schools are still fairly well balanced. Until not long ago, Central was almost equally divided between whites, blacks, and asians. I don't know how much effort goes into making it this well balanced, or if it's just a coincidence. That being said, there is a huge influx of middle class Asians coming to Philadelphia from the NYC metro and I suspect they are going to start to put pressure on these ratios, and raise hell if the city does anything to maintain something of a balanced racial demographic. In fact, I just checked and Central is currently about 40% Asian, 30% White, 20% Black, 10% Latino/Mixed. Maybe that flux is already happening, but I would hope the top schools in Philly avoid the mess that's happening in NYC where many of the magnets are close to 100% Asian. I think there are sub 10 black kids per class at Stuyvesant atm.

Pittsburgh has a growing Asian population, but it's heavily folks associated with the universities (undergrads, grad students, postdocs, etc.) and they don't tend to have many kids. The highest Asian percentages are probably in some of the southern and western neighborhood schools where the Bhutanese refugee populations have settled.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

The pre-school consultant nonsense is obviously ridiculous, but I know lots of people who took test prep classes or had tutors for Cincinnati high school entrance exams. It's very common, actually.

I have never heard of someone being tutored for a high school entrance exam. I think that's because the mid-sized cities aren't as competitive at the high school level because there isn't a pecking order amongst similar schools. The top schools are often quite different from each other since they have differing religious affiliations or they're explicitly for blue bloods.

[Crawford]

I don't think tutoring is some superelite thing. Plenty of kids had tutors when I was attending public schools in a Midwestern suburb in the 1990's. Tutors could just be smart HS students, or they were (more commonly) 20-somethings making some money on the side.

Also, go to any working class Asian or Eastern European immigrant neighborhood, and you'll see tutoring or encrichment storefronts everywhere. Even non-wealthy Asian kids often go to weekend cram schools and have one-on-one tutoring. My son has a 5-yo friend whose parents are from mainland China, and his kid is already in cram school, and separately, is entering some Mandarin competitions (not sure what this exactly entails).

The idea of spending tens of thousands on tutors annually, yeah, is probably an elite thing.

[eschaton]

It shouldn't be surprising that schools which have entrance exams based upon a test only tend to have over-representation of Asians at the moment.

Studies have been 100% clear that going to these schools DOES NOT improve your adult career outcomes one bit. Kids who were at the cutoff have been compared as to whether they get in or go to a neighborhood school, and there is literally no difference. Once again, any overperformance is because they concentrate the crème de la crème.

That said, I do think they play an important role keeping a certain kind of parent within the city and within the public school system. Efforts to switch over to entire lottery-based systems won't actually lead to more equitable educational outcomes.

[edale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I have never heard of someone being tutored for a high school entrance exam. I think that's because the mid-sized cities aren't as competitive at the high school level because there isn't a pecking order amongst similar schools. The top schools are often quite different from each other since they have differing religious affiliations or they're explicitly for blue bloods.

Well then you're not paying attention. Just because you've never heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are many providers of HS entrance exam prep classes around Cincinnati, as I'm sure there are in most cities. Some of the lesser tier Catholic high schools will basically take anyone, but schools like St. X and Ursuline are very competitive. I believe the year I tested for St. X, the qualifying score was a 93%. Thousands of kids apply. Of course they take legacy status (and quietly race) into consideration, but for the average kid without any additional bonuses, it can be difficult to get into those schools.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

You should have no issue with sending your kids to Amundsen. I have a kid there and a kid at Lane. Both my wife and I prefer Amundsen to Lane.

you're living my life a decade into the future (or i'm living yours a decade ago).

that's a very interesting perspective to hear, as you have real-deal first hand experience with both schools.

before reading your perspective, i would've done backflips if my kids got into Lane (i mean, a top 5 school in the state and only 1.5 miles south of us, sign me up!!!). i still might, but yeah, it's a mammoth school with nearly 4,500 kids. that's an entirely different ballgame of "bigness" and "de-personalization" compared to Amundsen's more intimate 1,500 kids.

living in a tier 4 census tract (the most competitive level for getting into a big 5), maybe it ain't really worth playing "the game"?

Originally Posted by Crawford

The three traditional test-in HS in NYC are supermajority Asian, but most selective NYC HS aren't anywhere close to supermajority Asian.

Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech are basically deciding admissions on a single assessment. Those schools are extremely Asian (from about 1930-1980, they were about as Jewish as they're Asian today).

that's interesting.

maybe it's because chicago has nowhere near as many asian people as NYC does (both #'s and %), but none of CPS's "big 5" super-selective magnet highschools have a macro-demo majority. ie. there isn't a "white" one, or a "latino" one, or an "asian" one, etc.

while white kids are certainly way over-represented compared to CPS as a whole, and black kids way under-represented, they all still have a decent enough mix.


Payton HS - Near North Side | 1,230 students | 30.2% low-income

- white: 37.6%
- latino: 24.4%
- asian: 24.5%
- black: 8.9%
- other: 4.6%



Northside Prep HS - North Park | 1,040 students | 35.5% low-income

- white: 38.2%
- latino: 28.7%
- asian: 21.0%
- black: 5.6%
- other: 6.6%



Jones HS - South Loop | 1,931 students | 37.2% low-income

- white: 34.9%
- latino: 31.5%
- asian: 17.3%
- black: 12.4%
- other: 3.9%



Young HS - Near West Side | 2,149 students | 36.2% low-income

- white: 25.2%
- latino: 28.5%
- asian: 24.2%
- black: 17.1%
- other: 5.0%



Lane Tech HS - North Center | 4,479 students | 35.4% low-income

- white: 38.3%
- latino: 34.7%
- asian: 10.7%
- black: 6.5%
- other: 9.8%

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It shouldn't be surprising that schools which have entrance exams based upon a test only tend to have over-representation of Asians at the moment.

Studies have been 100% clear that going to these schools DOES NOT improve your adult career outcomes one bit. Kids who were at the cutoff have been compared as to whether they get in or go to a neighborhood school, and there is literally no difference. Once again, any overperformance is because they concentrate the crème de la crème.

That said, I do think they play an important role keeping a certain kind of parent within the city and within the public school system. Efforts to switch over to entire lottery-based systems won't actually lead to more equitable educational outcomes.

Okay, the problem with many of those studies is that they compare elite schools with fairly decent neighborhood schools.

For cities, the issue is that the choices tend to be selective elite schools vs neighborhood ‘F’ schools. Things would be much better for cities if the majority of schools could be classed as just decent or even average. But that’s not the case.

For example, the high school my family is zoned for is Chicago Vocational.

Sorry, but a school that barely has a single classroom of students who can meet basic educational standards is not going to meet the needs of a student with college potential. Not without expensive tutoring or extensive self-teaching.

The realistic ‘local’ high school option is Kenwood Academy which my child would have to test into, but it can at least support a full selection of AP courses. But unfortunately Kenwood is also quite a competitive application process.

But families with more money and the ability to move aren’t going to put up with lotteries or uncertainty.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

My mind is blown. I had no idea that people took this stuff so seriously.

Chicago Public Schools makes things so incredibly complicated, that a consultant is a reasonable option.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

maybe it's because chicago has nowhere near as many asian people as NYC does (both #'s and %), but none of CPS's "big 5" super-selective magnet highschools have a macro-demo majority.

now, while white kids are certainly way over-represented compared to CPS as a whole, and black kids way under-represented, they all still have a decent enough mix.

Yeah, the ethnic mix in NYC/Chicago schools is somewhat different. NYC schools have proportionally somewhat more whites, far more Asians, about the same share of Hispanics and far fewer blacks.

Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech are test-in only due to a 1970's state law that protected the admissions process from any changes. In the context of that (white flight/urban strife) era, white parents were afraid that equity concerns would change the admissions criteria to more holistic criteria to allow more blacks and Hispanics.

The white population plummeted in these schools, but for an unexpected reason - the burgeoning Asian student population was kicking ass on the entrance exam. Still, all three schools have a sizable white minority, particularly Brooklyn Tech. I believe the white population at Tech started growing again in recent years, or at least stabilized.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

Okay, the problem with many of those studies is that they compare elite schools with fairly decent neighborhood schools.

For cities, the issue is that the choices tend to be selective elite schools vs neighborhood ‘F’ schools. Things would be much better for cities if the majority of schools could be classed as just decent or even average. But that’s not the case.

For example, the high school my family is zoned for is Chicago Vocational.

Sorry, but a school that barely has a single classroom of students who can meet basic educational standards is not going to meet the needs of a student with college potential. Not without expensive tutoring or extensive self-teaching.

The realistic ‘local’ high school option is Kenwood Academy which my child would have to test into, but it can at least support a full selection of AP courses. But unfortunately Kenwood is also quite a competitive application process.

But families with more money and the ability to move aren’t going to put up with lotteries or uncertainty.

That isn't an "F" school though, it's a "C- school." Though it seems really, really hard to score worse than a C- on Niche (there are no schools in my district that score worse than that, for example).

My argument however was not that parents should feel comfortable sending their kids to the worst of the worst schools in their district. While I don't think that has serious impacts academically (I know people who did this with their kids, and they're fine) I would worry about the social impact on my kids if they went to a 95% black school where essentially all of the student body was low income, for example (their magnet schools have all been majority black, but more balanced than this). There's also serious concerns about safety, lack of school resources, non-existent PTAs, etc.

FWIW, the neighborhood K-8 I am zoned for is ranked B-. As I said, I find it totally acceptable, but at the time my daughter started kindergarten we lived in another neighborhood which had a worse neighborhood school (rated C). The neighborhood high school is ranked C-.

My son's elementary school, and my daughter's middle/high school, are both rated B...which considering the diversity in SES, really undersells both schools. I've looked into the standardized testing when disaggregated by race, and the white kids score as well as the top suburban schools, and the black kids score much better than at the neighborhood schools (though not quite good enough to close the achievement gap)

One weird thing I've noticed as I've gotten older though is how segregated kid social groups are. My daughter had close black friends in elementary school, but drifted away from them as she got older - all of her friends are white/Asian now (which is saying something since the school is around 2/3rds black). My son's school is closer to 50/50, and he's literally never had a black friend - which seems odd because I know he's still young enough he doesn't really understand race (like, one of his good friends has an adopted younger brother who is black, and he swears that the two look alike).

[Wigs]

This thread is dystopian.

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by eschaton

That isn't an "F" school though, it's a "C- school." Though it seems really, really hard to score worse than a C- on Niche (there are no schools in my district that score worse than that, for example).

My argument however was not that parents should feel comfortable sending their kids to the worst of the worst schools in their district. While I don't think that has serious impacts academically (I know people who did this with their kids, and they're fine) I would worry about the social impact on my kids if they went to a 95% black school where essentially all of the student body was low income, for example (their magnet schools have all been majority black, but more balanced than this). There's also serious concerns about safety, lack of school resources, non-existent PTAs, etc.

FWIW, the neighborhood K-8 I am zoned for is ranked B-. As I said, I find it totally acceptable, but at the time my daughter started kindergarten we lived in another neighborhood which had a worse neighborhood school (rated C). The neighborhood high school is ranked C-.

I’m using F-school proverbially since any general education school with under 5% proficiency is really unacceptable.

I would ignore the letter scores on that website, and focus on the test proficiency scores which are more reflective of reality. Your Pittsburgh examples seem average based on the scores.

It’s all well and good to say “don’t enroll in the bottom of the bottom ranked schools” but for a lot of urban areas, they are the general rule not the exception.

Coles Elementary- Chicago

According to state test scores, 22% of students are at least proficient in math and 12% in reading.

Pittsburg Dilworth - K-5

According to state test scores, 54% of students are at least proficient in math and 77% in reading

According to state test scores, 29% of students are at least proficient in math and 53% in reading.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by edale

The pre-school consultant nonsense is obviously ridiculous, but I know lots of people who took test prep classes or had tutors for Cincinnati high school entrance exams. It's very common, actually.

My son is in 8th grade and many of his friends are taking expensive high school entrance exam classes (meet on the weekends for like 6 months).

[muppet]

To the OP, many of the schools in London are dominated by working class kids (and those who are middle class have equivalent spending power as anyone's who's working class outside the city). All are majority ethnic minority, and many cover the most deprived and underfunded districts /boroughs in the country.

However, there is a phenomenon called the 'London Effect', that these kids outperform the rest of the country -even the lowest scoring in the capital are some of the highest outside it. A lot has been said about the high value of education that the African, East European and Asian families instill on their kids, another on the study culture among so many peers (even unruly kids will get their revision done when it comes to it), but no one's really sure. I imagine also that city kids get very progressive and often inspiring teachers, and have far more cultural access from living in a multitudinous city. They also get sea change and dynamism, if there are any changes and experiments that can be rolled out in education by forward thinking Head Teachers, it will likely be in city academies. These are the kinds of people that recognise that rappers are poets (with as much obsession on flow, rhyme and performance as the Victorians), suffering finds an outlet/ salve in creativity, and that gangs can not just be replacement families, but powered by masterminds that they get to personally know. Many of the teachers are there to inspire and change, not for the money, especially when they're consciously picking these schools rather than smaller provincial ones, with far less hassle.

https://sqte.at/en/beispiel-london-e...hese%20schools.

For example Brampton Manor School, in the country's most deprived borough (with the most immigrants) annually sends off more Oxbridge entrants (the country's two best universities, Cambridge or Oxford) than Eton College, a few hundred metres from the Queen's castle where she would often attend their ceremonies. Brampton received 89 offers this year -that's a poor State school overtaking the world's most elite one ($55K a year fees but with far worse entrance exams, where traditionally royal families from round the world send their kids), and where the nation's Prime Ministers usually get hired from.





Eton College is also very multicultural, and 25% of the boys receive financial assistance or on scholarship, but it goes to show league tables, class or funding aren't all that. Only recently they ditched the top hat the boys used to have to wear.


https://timpestridge.co.uk//images/P...-Eton-9681.jpg

Eton College complex:




I work on a schools programme in the busiest attraction in the country - we get over a thousand school kids visiting each day, and the London schools can often be rowdy and high spirited (well, many of the provincial ones too), especially aged 13-14, who'll think it fine to play football in a shop or food fights at lunch. However before and after, they're much better behaved. Also there's something to be said about what type of naughtiness the kids get into - there's the kind that get into trouble by being too loud and rowdy as they go round seeing the exhibits, there's the other where the rich kids break into elite groups, find a hiding spot in the Museum and spend the entire time texting and chatting. A favourite spot being the bed display, bless.