[Halifax] The Marlstone (1871 Albemarle) | 19 FL | U/C

[someone123]

Residential tower proposed for the corner of Duke and Albemarle, part of Scotia Square.

Report: http://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/drc/documents/821.pdf

[Jstaleness]

I took a look at some of the plans. Modern enough to excited about and fits the zone well.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Residential tower proposed for the corner of Duke and Albemarle, part of Scotia Square.

Report: http://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/drc/documents/821.pdf

Nice addition to the area, I think. That has been a dead zone for so long it will be nice to finally have something more interesting from street level.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Alb...!4d-63.5776776

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Nice addition to the area, I think. That has been a dead zone for so long it will be nice to finally have something more interesting from street level.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Alb...!4d-63.5776776

Good point, with this and the other 3 apartments already there maybe Albemarle Street can support some street level retail.

[alps]

Really happy they're doing something more ambitious here. With all the density, hopefully this area will soon see an urban format Sobey's or similar.

I wish they weren't retaining such a long blank wall along Albemarle though.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by alps

Really happy they're doing something more ambitious here. With all the density, hopefully this area will soon see an urban format Sobey's or similar.

I wish they weren't retaining such a long blank wall along Albemarle though.

Funny because my wife made the exact same comment the other day. We had family visiting from Ontario who were staying downtown, and so while we were down visiting and seeing all the residential construction my wife said "The next thing they need is an urban grocery store other than Pete's".

The curious thing, now that Sobey's owns Pete's, is whether they would see that as competing against themselves or not. I think there is ample opportunity based on both location and leaving Pete's to be more "high end" to justify that it could be independently successful. Given the Sobey's/Crombie thing, it would make sense to me to do an urban Sobey's in Scotia Square, if they could have it with visible frontage.

[someone123]

I've heard that Scotia Square used to have a Sobeys in it. I think it had a theatre as well?

Downtown Halifax is actually already pretty well-served by grocery stores. There's Pete's, the Sobeys on Queen, and the Superstore on Barrington. I don't know of any other North American cities of similar size that have that many so close to downtown. A lot of American cities have nothing to speak of. Of course, the suburban-style stores are a little unsatisfying. I think they might make it less likely for an urban format store to pop up though.

I've read different estimates for how much business a full store needs. Maybe 5,000-10,000 people? That is about how much the downtown population has been growing every 10-15 years since it bottomed out in the 1980's.

Regardless of what happens on the urban format grocery store front there's going to be a much greater density of residents in what up until recently was just an office district downtown. As a result I think it'll work a lot better as far as supporting diverse retail with longer hours and being more lively.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've heard that Scotia Square used to have a Sobeys in it. I think it had a theatre as well?

Yes, Scotia Square Cinema was accessed from Duke St and was across from the entry to Woolco. Technically it was in the Upper Mall although the size of those two places tended to move them away from the other stores on the upper level.

The cinema was of modern design and to my mind a bit plain, although pleasant enough. I remember when I first visited it in 1969 or 1970 that it was the first movie theater I had been in around here that did not have the old mohair or velour upholstered seats - theirs were a textured vinyl or nylon material. It was quite large, and it had a very gradual slope to the floor compared to most other movie theaters here. I think it closed in the late '80s or early '90s. The last movie I saw there was Good Morning Vietnam.

There was indeed a Sobeys when SS first opened , in the Lower Mall, roughly where the food court is now. My memory was that it did not last long, although there may have been a transitional arrangement from a full supermarket to a smaller "Express" type of outlet before it went away completely.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Yes, Scotia Square Cinema was accessed from Duke St and was across from the entry to Woolco. Technically it was in the Upper Mall although the size of those two places tended to move them away from the other stores on the upper level.

The cinema was of modern design and to my mind a bit plain, although pleasant enough. I remember when I first visited it in 1969 or 1970 that it was the first movie theater I had been in around here that did not have the old mohair or velour upholstered seats - theirs were a textured vinyl or nylon material. It was quite large, and it had a very gradual slope to the floor compared to most other movie theaters here. I think it closed in the late '80s or early '90s. The last movie I saw there was Good Morning Vietnam.

There was indeed a Sobeys when SS first opened , in the Lower Mall, roughly where the food court is now. My memory was that it did not last long, although there may have been a transitional arrangement from a full supermarket to a smaller "Express" type of outlet before it went away completely.

Yeah, it's interesting that as maligned as Scotia Square is, it actually once contained a lot of the services right in the middle of the downtown that a lot of people are wanting today, as if it's some kind of new "urban format" philosophy.

The "old timers" could probably say this better than me, but at that time the downtown as a shopping destination was still very vibrant. However, I suspect that Scotia Square drew enough customers away from the older mom and pop shops (and larger ones, like Zellers - in the The Discovery Centre building for you young folk) to cause a lot of them to close down, which led to the area becoming a little more desolate and run-down during the eighties and nineties.

As for movie theatres, remember there also were a couple on Barrington and Gottingen in addition, so one did not have to go very far to see a movie in the downtown (this is in the early days of cable TV, and before the time of VCRs, DVD players, or "streaming movies"....

[JET]

http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/37768

When Scotia Square was built, it was built with no windows so that shoppers would not be distracted by the dreary outside.

[Keith P.]

The Vintage Halifax page on Facebook offers this pic. Sadly, no interior pic of the theater itself. I'd love to see one.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Vintage Halifax page on Facebook offers this pic. Sadly, no interior pic of the theater itself. I'd love to see one.

I quite enjoyed the stand alone theatres, The Hyland was another good theatre.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Vintage Halifax page on Facebook offers this pic. Sadly, no interior pic of the theater itself. I'd love to see one.

Great photo. I'd also love to see an interior view. I remember Cinema Scotia Square as a very comfortable, classy theatre, with fine acoustics. Of course when built it was to replace the late, lamented Capitol, a reduction from 2000 seats to almost 800. Still a large auditorium by today's standards. (The Oxford has 340 seats; the largest auditorium at Bayers Lake has 336.)

For its first couple of decades Scotia Square had two levels with quite diverse retail and entertainment choices. As a kid I loved shopping for models and trains at the large Maritime Hobbies store on the upper mall.

One unique design feature was that the standard store front had generic text-based signs to identify the tenant: no logos or designer fonts were allowed. I guess it was meant to convey an elegant, homogeneous appearance but it may ultimately have helped to discourage traffic.

I'm still somewhat surprised that the downtown retail environment could fail so dramatically over the span of a few decades.

[ns_kid]

Scotia Square, c. 1970.

Here is the Nova Scotia Light and Power appliance store, with example of standard text-only sign:



Inside the store, some lovely 70's-era ranges in white, chocolate brown and avocado.
Also a back wall with a wide selection of electric kettles and irons:



The NSLP store was located in the lower mall, roughly where the medical clinic is today.

[lawsond]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Scotia Square, c. 1970.

Here is the Nova Scotia Light and Power appliance store, with example of standard text-only sign:



Inside the store, some lovely 70's-era ranges in white, chocolate brown and avocado.
Also a back wall with a wide selection of electric kettles and irons:



The NSLP store was located in the lower mall, roughly where the medical clinic is today.

That text only design is copied from Place Ville Marie in mtl. Also, the TD centre picked up on it and gave it a Mies feel. Scotia sq was only a couple of years younger than that. Underground malls were the rage so they gave SS an underground feel even tho it was high above Barrington St.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

One unique design feature was that the standard store front had generic text-based signs to identify the tenant: no logos or designer fonts were allowed. I guess it was meant to convey an elegant, homogeneous appearance but it may ultimately have helped to discourage traffic.

I recall that signage. I recall that most of it was in all-caps and the only variation was it being either in white or yellow/gold. The NSL&P pic you posted shows a mixed-case sign, which I don't remember seeing elsewhere in the mall. I had mixed feelings about it at the time - while it gave the place a certain feel that I liked, it did take away from those retailers who had well-designed or easily identifiable logos. Also in the pic of SS Cinema I posted you can see the reflection of the "WOOLCO DEPARTMENT STORE" sign across the mall, which IIRC was in a larger size than most other mall signage but otherwise reflected the sign standards. I don't know how the Cinema got away with using their logos and unique font.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

For its first couple of decades Scotia Square had two levels with quite diverse retail and entertainment choices. As a kid I loved shopping for models and trains at the large Maritime Hobbies store on the upper mall.

One unique design feature was that the standard store front had generic text-based signs to identify the tenant: no logos or designer fonts were allowed. I guess it was meant to convey an elegant, homogeneous appearance but it may ultimately have helped to discourage traffic.

I'm still somewhat surprised that the downtown retail environment could fail so dramatically over the span of a few decades.

Also from Vintage Halifax on FB, these 3 pics show the interior of the mall in its early years. The Village Square was the Upper Mall area roughly above the center court. Evidently, stores located there did not need to follow the signage standards used elsewhere in the mall.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Also from Vintage Halifax on FB, these 3 pics show the interior of the mall in its early years. The Village Square was the Upper Mall area roughly above the center court. Evidently, stores located there did not need to follow the signage standards used elsewhere in the mall.

I think The Doll House as shown here was across Barrington in The Barrington Place Shops above the lobby of Delta Barrington.

Those Village Place Shops look like they were intended to be more aimed at tourists than the rest of SS. Looks and feels like Historic Properties.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Great photo. I'd also love to see an interior view. I remember Cinema Scotia Square as a very comfortable, classy theatre, with fine acoustics. Of course when built it was to replace the late, lamented Capitol, a reduction from 2000 seats to almost 800. Still a large auditorium by today's standards. (The Oxford has 340 seats; the largest auditorium at Bayers Lake has 336.)

For its first couple of decades Scotia Square had two levels with quite diverse retail and entertainment choices. As a kid I loved shopping for models and trains at the large Maritime Hobbies store on the upper mall.

One unique design feature was that the standard store front had generic text-based signs to identify the tenant: no logos or designer fonts were allowed. I guess it was meant to convey an elegant, homogeneous appearance but it may ultimately have helped to discourage traffic.

I'm still somewhat surprised that the downtown retail environment could fail so dramatically over the span of a few decades.

Once City and Provincial Governments prioritized the automobile and suburbs, and developed roads/cities around them, urban malls not properly served by public transit would never survive, and still today struggle.

Contrast Scotia Square's struggles with Toronto's Eaton Center, built only 8 years after-- unlike SS, EC was smartly built on the main TTC line and IMHO that's a key reason for its success.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Contrast Scotia Square's struggles with Toronto's Eaton Center, built only 8 years after-- unlike SS, EC was smartly built on the main TTC line and IMHO that's a key reason for its success.

The Eaton Centre isn't perfect but it's also integrated a bit better into its surroundings. It's got clear entrances and you can use it to get from one place to another, whether you're on foot or taking transit. It has improved a lot in recent years with new stores and renovations like what's happening just now with the Scotia Square addition along Barrington.

The Bay Centre in Victoria is another successful urban mall. It's about the same size as the Scotia Square mall but as an overall development it's much smaller. It's on a normal-sized block and from the outside it mostly fits in with the storefront shopping next to it. It also had the Bay as an anchor tenant, and that is one of the few big stores that has survived reasonably well in most Canadian cities. I don't think Halifax ever had a downtown Hudson's Bay; it was already well-established by the time the department store phenomenon was in full swing, whereas a lot of cities farther west grew up around Eaton's and Bay locations that had a huge share of the local market from the beginning.

Downtown Victoria's shops remind me a lot of what's in Halifax, but for better or worse Victoria doesn't really have a distinct "CBD" dominated by office towers like what you find in Halifax. It escaped most of the worst urban planning trends of the 60's and 70's, but also didn't benefit much from the bolder, larger-scale city building of the period. Almost all of downtown Victoria is like Spring Garden Road or Quinpool Road. Victoria feels less built up but I think there are probably also fewer dead zones. It is like a scaled-up smaller town whereas Halifax is like a scaled-down major North American city. Years ago it had a more upscale feel than Halifax, with fewer run-down buildings, but today they seem more on par to me. The comparison is interesting and I'm going on a bit of a digression because I was there recently.

Scotia Square doesn't look inviting in the least and it's not a place you'd casually discover or can easily work into a bigger shopping trip on foot that also takes you by a lot of shops. That could change with a bigger Barrington entrance and improvements to other properties around Barrington/George/Duke. Maybe TD will help a little? The Dennis block could potentially add a lot. There was also a nice proposal to open up the northern end of the Grand Parade with a staircase but it seems nothing has come of that. Just having better streetscaping and wayfinding around Barrington and George/Duke would probably help.