Any American cities moving up a tier?

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Doady

The distance from origin to destination (euclidean walking distance). The ability to walk in a straight line (effective walking distance).

Bottom line is, a very small city will be more walkable than a much bigger city by default. Therefore, a very big city like LA needs to do more to be as walkable as the smaller cities, and it just hasn't done that.

I understand half this thinking, but not the other half.

Yes, by the percentage of residents living in a "walkable" area, small towns probably could run up the score fast, like college towns do with biking.

However...

"Walkability is all about lower walking distance. Nothing more or less."

Although I see some truth in that statement, my reality informs me otherwise. I would drive from Target to REI in the same shopping center in Virginia Beach because walking just felt weird. My girlfriends dad lives probably 3 minutes away by walking from a taco bell(small town America), do you think they/we have EVER walked there? Of course not.I now walk two long-ass blocks to get to a train station, happily. Also, I sometimes walk to school(40-minute walk) just because it is some damn pleasant.

Distance plays a role(obviously) but who is walking from one end to another in LA? No one. What is also an important factor is the environment.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

I understand half this thinking, but not the other half.

Yes, by the percentage of residents living in a "walkable" area, small towns probably could run up the score fast, like college towns do with biking.

However...

"Walkability is all about lower walking distance. Nothing more or less."

Although I see some truth in that statement, my reality informs me otherwise. I would drive from Target to REI in the same shopping center in Virginia Beach because walking just felt weird. My girlfriends dad lives probably 3 minutes away by walking from a taco bell(small town America), do you think they/we have EVER walked there? Of course not.I now walk two long-ass blocks to get to a train station, happily. Also, I sometimes walk to school(40-minute walk) just because it is some damn pleasant.

Distance plays a role(obviously) but who is walking from one end to another in LA? No one. What is also an important factor is the environment.

Yes, you are right. There needs to be sidewalks, obviously. Sidewalk width, more frequent and faster crossings, buffer between cars and pedestrians (e.g. parallel parking), etc. 1km can feel much more than 1km.

I think the most important thing is being able to walk in the first place. Things being close enough together and being able to walk in a straight line as possible to reduce the distances. What you describe is something that needs to be considered as well, but I'm not sure it is the main, underlying issue in such a huge city like Los Angeles. A city of that size has a bigger challenge and needs to do a lot more to get people to walk. That's why I think people shouldn't compare it to other cities too much.

[DZH22]

Walkability is definitely not just purely about distance. For instance, tons of people walk across this bridge everyday, even though it's a full half mile and it's not like most destinations are right next to the bridge either. It's just such a pleasant place to be that walking from Cambridge to Boston and vice versa is common and not seen as a chore.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3545...7i16384!8i8192

[jtown,man]

Yeah, that's a good example. I would also add that culture is important too. Maybe I have really high anxiety(I do lol) but I am sure most of us have felt weird or "skanky" walking in certain places. Like you know the people in cars are looking at you at a stop light, feeling oh so superior.

A walkable place, to me anyway, is where people in cars can't wait to park them so they can join in on the walking.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by JAYNYC

There's clearly some sort of bizarre Napoleon / inferiority complex going on among Angeleno forumers relative to cities that aren't blatantly auto-dependent (like Los Angeles).

Relax.

Yeah, as I'm sitting in my quiet, comfortable, air conditioned car with my coffee, totally relaxed, I often think to myself "you know, this is pretty nice and all, but where I really want to be is crammed into a sweaty, grimey subway car with 50 other people."

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Yeah, as I'm sitting in my quiet, comfortable, air conditioned car with my coffee, totally relaxed, I often think to myself "you know, this is pretty nice and all, but where I really want to be is crammed into a sweaty, grimey subway car with 50 other people."

Im with ya, I can walk or bike or use lyft/uber or the light rail to most anything I want to do these days but I'd still never surrender my car.

I dont always use it but I like having the option. Gives your life infinitely more flexibility because even in regions with good public transportation there are areas that are difficult or expensive to get too without your own vehichle.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Im with ya, I can walk or bike or use lyft/uber or the light rail to most anything I want to do these days but I'd still never surrender my car.

I dont always use it but I like having the option. Gives your life infinitely more flexibility because even in regions with good public transportation there are areas that are difficult or expensive to get too without your own vehichle.

In cities built for cars, this is certainly true. In cities built to be less car reliant, cars are an albatross. You will not have the same flexibility with a car in Manhattan that you would without it.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

In cities built for cars, this is certainly true. In cities built to be less car reliant, cars are an albatross. You will not have the same flexibility with a car in Manhattan that you would without it.

There are very few cities in north america like this, and only in specific areas like Manhattan and maybe parts of Brooklyn near the river, within the city limits of San Francisco etc.

People living in New Jersey and Long Island most certainly use their cars. I know New York doesn't like to acknowledge its own massive suburbs but they do exist, I've been to em' you cant fool me on it.

[mhays]

AAA's current cost of ownership of the first car is what, $9,000 per year? I'm not looking it up. Not having a car is how I can live in a better place and walk to work while also putting a lot more away. THAT is freedom.

PS I don't live in one of those cities mentioned...a car would be an albatross for me in my tweener city too.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by mhays

AAA's current cost of ownership of the first car is what, $9,000 per year? I'm not looking it up. Not having a car is how I can live in a better place and walk to work while also putting a lot more away. THAT is freedom.

PS I don't live in one of those cities mentioned...a car would be an albatross for me in my tweener city too.

Your inability to afford a car is not at all what I am talking about. No matter how you cut it no car limits your mobility.

Can you live in an area thats walk-able, yes, can you bum rides from friends...sure, but you are still limited to where the train stops and the distance a person will reasonably walk/bike.

A car allows for a freedom of movement that you cant replace they aren't incredibly successful and popular machines arbitrarily. And you certainly dont need to spend 9 grand a year for a functioning automobile.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Obadno

There are very few cities in north america like this, and only in specific areas like Manhattan and maybe parts of Brooklyn near the river, within the city limits of San Francisco etc.

People living in New Jersey and Long Island most certainly use their cars. I know New York doesn't like to acknowledge its own massive suburbs but they do exist, I've been to em' you cant fool me on it.

Yes, Long Island suburbs are definitely car oriented. But... my point is that cars are limiting if you're in a good pedestrian environment. Cars only make sense when your needs are spaced out. If everything is in walking distance, why would you ever need to be attached to a $30,000 hunk of metal?

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yes, Long Island suburbs are definitely car oriented. But... my point is that cars are limiting if you're in a good pedestrian environment. Cars only make sense when your needs are spaced out. If everything is in walking distance, why would you ever need to be attached to a $30,000 hunk of metal?

go ahead and refer to above. Some of us like the ability to actually go far afield, leave our city, and even the region or state all together at times.

Lets not even get into moving large items.

Dont get me wrong, I am a fan of walkable neighborhoods but I think its crazy to claim that cars are not incredibly useful and convenient.

I understand why in some cities with the limit on space and extra cost of parking it makes it expensive to have one but by and large cars are well worth it.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yes, Long Island suburbs are definitely car oriented. But... my point is that cars are limiting if you're in a good pedestrian environment. Cars only make sense when your needs are spaced out. If everything is in walking distance, why would you ever need to be attached to a $30,000 hunk of metal?

And Long Island suburbs that lack good transit links are economic laggards. Most of the populated parts of LI have frequent rail to Manhattan within relatively short distance. The areas furthest from rail tend to have the worst property appreciation, and are generally postwar aberrations, and are sorta sliding into relative irrelevance.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yes, Long Island suburbs are definitely car oriented. But... my point is that cars are limiting if you're in a good pedestrian environment. Cars only make sense when your needs are spaced out. If everything is in walking distance, why would you ever need to be attached to a $30,000 hunk of metal?

Ask the people of South Philly https://goo.gl/maps/xuTkBUszDzttFMUc6. One of the most walkable urban spaces in the entire country absolutely jam packed with cars parked in every available space including sidewalks (which, ironically, completely ruins its walkability).

Or just look at all the condo towers going up in LA, Dallas, even Chicago. What do they all have in common? Giant freaking parking podiums. Apparently even people seeking the "urban lifestyle" gotta have their freedom machines.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And Long Island suburbs that lack good transit links are economic laggards. Most of the populated parts of LI have frequent rail to Manhattan within relatively short distance. The areas furthest from rail tend to have the worst property appreciation, and are generally postwar aberrations, and are sorta sliding into relative irrelevance.

I dont know if that's entirely accurate;

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...vfjy_ubfhi%22}

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Ask the people of South Philly https://goo.gl/maps/xuTkBUszDzttFMUc6. One of the most walkable urban spaces in the entire country absolutely jam packed with cars parked in every available space including sidewalks (which, ironically, completely ruins its walkability).

South Philly is extremely pedestrian-oriented, even if there's reasonably high auto ownership. There's only one rail line in South Philly, so it isn't shocking that most households own vehicles.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Your inability to afford a car is not at all what I am talking about. No matter how you cut it no car limits your mobility.

Can you live in an area thats walk-able, yes, can you bum rides from friends...sure, but you are still limited to where the train stops and the distance a person will reasonably walk/bike.

A car allows for a freedom of movement that you cant replace they aren't incredibly successful and popular machines arbitrarily. And you certainly dont need to spend 9 grand a year for a functioning automobile.

The point is not having one allows luxuries in other ways, and that's freedom. Transit, a bike, and an occasional taxi or uber PLUS the money saved is better than using a car for most things. PS, I can afford a car.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Ask the people of South Philly https://goo.gl/maps/xuTkBUszDzttFMUc6. One of the most walkable urban spaces in the entire country absolutely jam packed with cars parked in every available space including sidewalks (which, ironically, completely ruins its walkability).

Or just look at all the condo towers going up in LA, Dallas, even Chicago. What do they all have in common? Giant freaking parking podiums. Apparently even people seeking the "urban lifestyle" gotta have their freedom machines.

Once again, the popularity of cars is not arbitrary. But I think that point will fall on deaf ears in this forum. If you are very comfortable in an urban environment and lack any desire to leave it at any point I can get the no care mindset but thats simply not how 95% of the population lives.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I dont know if that's entirely accurate;

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...vfjy_ubfhi%22}

Um, this shows Great Neck, which is extremely transit oriented.

Great Neck probably has comparable transit commute share as Chicago, Philly and the like. They have 24/7 service to Penn via subway-style third rail LIRR service. The whole peninsula has jitney shuttles connecting to rail.

Tons of wealthy people, living in palatial homes, take transit in the NY area. Not unusual, at all. There's no other way to travel to Manhattan during normal business hours, unless you're super wealthy and take a copter. So if you're a biglaw partner, living in Great Neck, and working in Manhattan, you're almost certainty taking the train.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Ask the people of South Philly https://goo.gl/maps/xuTkBUszDzttFMUc6. One of the most walkable urban spaces in the entire country absolutely jam packed with cars parked in every available space including sidewalks (which, ironically, completely ruins its walkability).

Or just look at all the condo towers going up in LA, Dallas, even Chicago. What do they all have in common? Giant freaking parking podiums. Apparently even people seeking the "urban lifestyle" gotta have their freedom machines.

I would bet that personal car ownership rates in that Philly neighborhood are still far, far lower than the national average. They probably don't even have an average of 1 car per household.