Lamenting the decline of the car

[Innsertnamehere]

^important to note that this is the car market, not the passenger vehicle market. The car market in generally is shrinking quickly - SUVs are the model of choice for most consumers today. Vehicle producers shifting away from a rapidly shrinking market shouldn't be a surprise.

If gas prices ever start to rise again in the US, I imagine that cars will return in popularity and we will see american carmakers re-enter the market.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Exactly my point. Montreal and Quebec are known for efficient snow clearing, and being urban areas they will like the advantages of smaller cars for parking and efficiency, and don't need a large 4 wheel drive monster.

But they are buying these cars to fit their needs, not their politics!

I said culture, not politics. The majority of people in Montreal and Quebec City live in the suburbs, which have wide, truck friendly roads just like the suburbs of Winnipeg and Calgary. But they still tend to drive smaller cars. Toronto gets just as much snow as Calgary but it doesn't have the same predominance of 4x4s. Is snow removal really that much worse in the Prairies than Ontario and Quebec relative to the amount of snowfall? Is there any evidence of this?

My point is that people aren't buying these cars to fit their needs or the weather, they're buying them to fit their wants. Big difference.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I said culture, not politics. The majority of people in Montreal and Quebec City live in the suburbs, which have wide, truck friendly roads just like the suburbs of Winnipeg and Calgary. But they still tend to drive smaller cars. Toronto gets just as much snow as Calgary but it doesn't have the same predominance of 4x4s. Is snow removal really that much worse in the Prairies than Ontario and Quebec relative to the amount of snowfall? Is there any evidence of this?

My point is that people aren't buying these cars to fit their needs or the weather, they're buying them to fit their wants. Big difference.

Snow removal is worse in the prairies in general and Calgary in particular for a couple of reasons:

1) greater length of roads relative to population so less available funds
2) more unpredictable weather. For example, planning snow removal in Calgary is a challenge given that the city will experience a more variable number of major snowfall events overs a greater period of time than would Toronto. Making up numbers to illustrate the point...Calgary might get 1-8 major snowfalls between September and May while Toronto might get 6-8 between November and March. Which is easier to plan, reserve equipment and staff?

Big vehicles are easier to accommodate in boat of the west because the parking lots, driveways and garages tend to be larger. Part of it is also cultural....the whole do it yourself mentality.

I stand by my earlier point. SUV’s and AWD are of limited value in an urban area as the roads will gridlock during large snowfalls. No one gets around any faster than anyone else.

[milomilo]

An often ignored fact is that pickups are actually pretty sketchy at high speed in the snow, the back end can go pretty easily and unexpectedly.

[Rollerstud98]

Panic breaking is the real culprit in loss of control situations. Proper driver education would eliminate a lot of these situations. Modern traction controls help a lot. My 2015 Nissan Titan controls skids very well. Kinda boring to drive it really. Only time my old F350 had me sideways was driving to Flin Flon. 3-4 times that drive just had to release the throttle and straightened right back out.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by milomilo

An often ignored fact is that pickups are actually pretty sketchy at high speed in the snow, the back end can go pretty easily and unexpectedly.

thats why people put sandbags in the back.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

^important to note that this is the car market, not the passenger vehicle market. The car market in generally is shrinking quickly - SUVs are the model of choice for most consumers today. Vehicle producers shifting away from a rapidly shrinking market shouldn't be a surprise.

If gas prices ever start to rise again in the US, I imagine that cars will return in popularity and we will see american carmakers re-enter the market.

You are quite correct that cars are a shrinking percentage of the market but the reality is that the domestic makers just couldn't compete. KIA and Hyundai sales have soared in the last 20 years while the Big 3 declined.

With nearly all the auto reviews stating that the imports are at the top of the quality list and certainly will retain their values more, it makes you wonder if eventually they will be irrelevant in NA in any capacity except traditional trucks. It sound crazy now but 30 years ago saying imports would completely dominate car sales and the Big 3 have maybe 10% of the market would have been enough to get you committed.

Of course they are switching to SUVs as they can't compete in the car market and they make more money on SUVs as they are much more expensive. That of course begs the question, what are the Big 3 going to do if interest rates really rise? What happens when those rates mean your auto budget goes from $35k to $25k due to all that extra interest? The Big 3 are going to find out that they have nothing to sell that an average person can afford.

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by jonny24

The REAL answer to all of this don't have kids (hard to beat that carbon footprint), drive a 2 door, V6 pickup truck, that drives you and a spouse anywhere, can haul anything you want, not drive like a bus and still fit in your inner-city driveway

Of course, GM seems to be leading the charge in phasing out the 2 door short box...

Be careful what you say on here. Last time I suggested not having kids as a viable way to decrease your carbon footprint, I received a....."come on!"..... in response.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by milomilo

An often ignored fact is that pickups are actually pretty sketchy at high speed in the snow, the back end can go pretty easily and unexpectedly.

Well, not if you're driving on 4hi, which, in snow, you should.

2wd trucks are good in the Sunbelt (or extreme SW BC), but in (most of) Canada they're a pretty ridiculous purchase/savings decision. I assume anytime we're talking about pickups, that we're talking about 4x4 pickups.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by jonny24

The REAL answer to all of this don't have kids (hard to beat that carbon footprint), drive a 2 door, V6 pickup truck, that drives you and a spouse anywhere, can haul anything you want, not drive like a bus and still fit in your inner-city driveway

Of course, GM seems to be leading the charge in phasing out the 2 door short box...







(Ok, I bought the V8 )

Not having kids won't solve anything. We already don't have enough kids to keep our population replaced. So we get the people we need from other places around the world where there are too many kids. So you not having kids just means we let in a few more people from one of those places. Nothing changes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

Be careful what you say on here. Last time I suggested not having kids as a viable way to decrease your carbon footprint, I received a....."come on!"..... in response.

But don't you have kids yourself? (Unless I am mistaken...)

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by lio45

Well, not if you're driving on 4hi, which, in snow, you should.

2wd trucks are good in the Sunbelt (or extreme SW BC), but in (most of) Canada they're a pretty ridiculous purchase/savings decision. I assume anytime we're talking about pickups, that we're talking about 4x4 pickups.

Yeah, for the most part if it's bad enough to need 4WD, you probably shouldn't be going too fast. But there are times where you can be caught off guard and for someone inexperienced with a RWD vehicle the first time it happens can be quite terrifying, and it's probably why you see a disproportionate number of pickups in the ditch. For driving on cold, icy highways I'd take a FWD car over a pickup any day.

And yeah, a 2WD pickup is definitely not a wise saving of money. While you don't need 4WD most of the time, with a pickup, when you need it, you really need it.

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

Be careful what you say on here. Last time I suggested not having kids as a viable way to decrease your carbon footprint, I received a....."come on!"..... in response.

You have it backwards.

Have kids and you get to divide your household emissions more ways for a lower individual footprint, plus your per-person fuel consumption/emissions are lower with 4 people in a mid-size SUV are lower than 2 people in a sub-compact!

Ikea has the parents of small children parking is right next to the electric car parking for a reason.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I said culture, not politics. The majority of people in Montreal and Quebec City live in the suburbs, which have wide, truck friendly roads just like the suburbs of Winnipeg and Calgary. But they still tend to drive smaller cars. Toronto gets just as much snow as Calgary but it doesn't have the same predominance of 4x4s. Is snow removal really that much worse in the Prairies than Ontario and Quebec relative to the amount of snowfall? Is there any evidence of this?

My point is that people aren't buying these cars to fit their needs or the weather, they're buying them to fit their wants. Big difference.

But if you read back in the thread, you will find my comments were directed at the assertion that people selected their cars based on their politics, not their needs, wants, and desires.

You took part of my response out of the context for which they were meant.

[whatnext]

I see that Nissan's new Altima offers standard AWD. It will be interesting to see if that helps boost it sales vis a vis Camry and Accord. For me styling is a little too much in the "Transformers" mode so de rigeur from Japan these days.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/driv...edan-features/

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Doug

Snow removal is worse in the prairies in general and Calgary in particular for a couple of reasons:

1) greater length of roads relative to population so less available funds
2) more unpredictable weather. For example, planning snow removal in Calgary is a challenge given that the city will experience a more variable number of major snowfall events overs a greater period of time than would Toronto. Making up numbers to illustrate the point...Calgary might get 1-8 major snowfalls between September and May while Toronto might get 6-8 between November and March. Which is easier to plan, reserve equipment and staff?

Big vehicles are easier to accommodate in boat of the west because the parking lots, driveways and garages tend to be larger. Part of it is also cultural....the whole do it yourself mentality.

I stand by my earlier point. SUV’s and AWD are of limited value in an urban area as the roads will gridlock during large snowfalls. No one gets around any faster than anyone else.

So you're saying that low density cities have worse snow clearing than high density ones? Again, I'd like to see some evidence of that. The snow clearing in Calgary seemed perfectly fine every time I've been there. As for weather, I'd argue that it's more challenging to clear snow in a city that gets the same amount of snow in a shorter amount of time, meaning the storms are either more frequent or more intense. Or both.

Do it yourself mentality leads to people buying trucks and SUVs? Somehow I doubt that DIY attitude extends to the roads that the government provides for free

Originally Posted by ssiguy

domestic makers

No such thing.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The Big 3

You mean Toyota, Volkswagen and Daimler?

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

But if you read back in the thread, you will find my comments were directed at the assertion that people selected their cars based on their politics, not their needs, wants, and desires.

You took part of my response out of the context for which they were meant.

Yeah, I get that, I was more responding to the notion that Canadians buy their vehicles based on the weather. Which they largely don't. I really have no opinion on that whole aside about politics and cars.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Mister F

So you're saying that low density cities have worse snow clearing than high density ones? Again, I'd like to see some evidence of that. The snow clearing in Calgary seemed perfectly fine every time I've been there. As for weather, I'd argue that it's more challenging to clear snow in a city that gets the same amount of snow in a shorter amount of time, meaning the storms are either more frequent or more intense. Or both.

Do it yourself mentality leads to people buying trucks and SUVs? Somehow I doubt that DIY attitude extends to the roads that the government provides for free :haha

Simple math:
-Same tax base with more roads means less snow removal budget per km
-Snow season spread out over linger period means less budget per day

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I see that Nissan's new Altima offers standard AWD. It will be interesting to see if that helps boost it sales vis a vis Camry and Accord. For me styling is a little too much in the "Transformers" mode so de rigeur from Japan these days.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/driv...edan-features/

Knowing Nissan it's probably a very good car but it's just another generic Japanese/Korean car. Cars today are so bloody similar that except for the small grill differences and the status symbol icons. There are so little variations of shape or style that just looking at them is enough to put you to sleep. That's {about the only thing} that I liked about Chrysler cars in the last 20 years...…..all the designs were original and unique.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Knowing Nissan it's probably a very good car but it's just another generic Japanese/Korean car. Cars today are so bloody similar that except for the small grill differences and the status symbol icons. There are so little variations of shape or style that just looking at them is enough to put you to sleep. That's {about the only thing} that I liked about Chrysler cars in the last 20 years...…..all the designs were original and unique.

What exactly do you expect from cars, though? They are not works of art, they are portable appliances that move people and things from point A to point B. Any expectations beyond that are the work of clever marketing, and exist only to extract more $ from your wallet.

[TownGuy]

I find the Mazda 3 to be a sharp looking compact.