Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Kevin O'Leary was born and bred in Montreal.

Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.

ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.

They are more than welcome to be Quebeckers. (I should know, I'm in a stable long-term relationship with one )

But yeah, "Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones. I don't see this as impolitely exclusionary, rather it's just a matter of accuracy. People are what they are, not what they wish they were.

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

They are more than welcome to be Quebeckers. (I should know, I'm in a stable long-term relationship with one )

But yeah, "Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones. I don't see this as impolitely exclusionary, rather it's just a matter of accuracy. People are what they are, not what they wish they were.

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.

Anglophones who have a pretty good fluency in French (though not necessarily unaccented) and "fit in" seamlessly with francophone Quebec, are also considered "Québécois" by most everyone (ie the French term, with accents aigus on the Es). People like Brian Mulroney, Thomas Mulcair, Corey Hart, the McGarrigle sisters, Jasey-Jay Anderson, Mike Bossy, Pat Burns, Nanette Workman, Judy Richards, Oliver Jones, Dickie Moore, Lawrence Cannon, Marlene Jennings, etc. come to mind.

[lio45]

MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

I hope the peninsular elites remember the little guys when they meet in the Caraquet Tim Hortons for roll up the rim days.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........

Good point though they don't complain that New BrunswickER as an identity does not intuititively evoke for many people someone who is a francophone.

They don't think of the New BrunswickER identity much at all.

The people in Macadam and Hartland can have it all for themselves. (Though NB Acadians harbour no ill-will towards their province.)

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? It would never occur to me to say that a Franco-Manitoban who didn’t speak English all that well, or even at all, wasn’t a “Manitoban” in the fullest sense, despite any self-exclusion or isolation.

[kool maudit]

This is because "Quebecois" is arguably an ethnicity in the older manner, while "Manitoban" is not. Of course, the older manner is unfashionable and on its way out (e.g. Zlatan is Swedish now, whereas in 1910 he would not have been), but we all know that these things are not precisely flat or equivalent, even if we must treat them that way in an official sense.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

Your smugness really gets on my nerves. You (and Lio, since you are practically the same person) seem to think you have a monopoly on the answers.

If we are being honest...ah fuck it.

[MolsonExport]

letters that don't even exist in the English language

The e accent aigu is not on my keyboard (without having to insert a special character), and you know this, but think you are so clever pointing this out.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.

Assimilation yes?

Hmmm, didn't the British try this out on the French speaking habitants? I for one think it is a good thing they failed.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.

Don't you have a non-Québécois (see, I can insert the accents when I cut and paste) ethnic side? Which makes you only half-Québécois, using your definition?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Your smugness really gets on my nerves. You (and Lio, since you are practically the same person) seem to think you have a monopoly on the answers.

If we are being honest...ah fuck it.

I gave a whole bunch of names of people are considered part of the Québécois "us" who are (non-assimilated) anglophones. I can list off many more if required.

I believe almost all of them are (declared or assumed to be) federalists and some of them are even critical of certain Québécois groupthink tenets.

But they're still considered part of the "us" (and often belovedly so) so it's legitimate to ask why it's worked for them and not for others, and whether or not self-exclusion plays a role in at least some cases.

It can't all be on those evil xenophobic Québécois francophones who just don't want to accept anglos (or anyone different) as part of their gang.

Such things are never that one-sided. As an eminent professor specialized in cultural differences (not doxing you BTW - you've said this many times on here) you of all people should be more aware of this than any of us.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Don't you have a non-Québécois (see, I can insert the accents when I cut and paste) ethnic side? Which makes you only half-Québécois, using your definition?

You should ask him if that makes him fearful of or uneasy in the society where he lives?

(BTW I also have that different, non-Québécois side. It's actually predominant in my case.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? .

Trudeau and Charest got that (PET way more than Charest) due to the nastiness of the political game, fuelled by a perception - right or wrong - that they were working against what most regarded as the interests of the "nation".

For the record I've never heard anyone do anything like that to Mulcair or Mulroney, who are both also federalists from Quebec, in addition to being more audibly anglophone (Mulcair) or born of two anglophone parents (Mulroney).

Which should in theory cost them more "purity" points than Charest and Trudeau. Well, if that many people actually cared about such things.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

(BTW I also have that different, non-Québécois side. It's actually predominant in my case.)

Self identification is a personal choice. We all want to feel "part of the tribe." With you, you have chosen to be Quebecois, which required at least a bit of assimilation into the culture.

Molson on the other hand apparently resents, or at least does not see the need for assimilation to be considered a Quebecois. I would say that he loves and appreciates Quebec society, but wants to retain his anglophone identity. The fact that if he still lived in Quebec he would be forced to make a choice he finds an abomination.

This is my take on the matter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Self identification is a personal choice. We all want to feel "part of the tribe." With you, you have chosen to be Quebecois, which required at least a bit of assimilation into the culture.

Molson on the other hand apparently resents, or at least does not see the need for assimilation to be considered a Quebecois. I would say that he loves and appreciates Quebec society, but wants to retain his anglophone identity. The fact that if he still lived in Quebec he would be forced to make a choice he finds an abomination.

This is my take on the matter.

Of course, people are free to choose whatever level of integration they're comfortable with, ranging from zero to 100%.

My point is simply that there is no shortage of examples of people who'd be considered "Québécois" while clearly remaining anglophones, as opposed to being totally assimilated to the francophone group in order to attain that status.