George Massey Tunnel Replacement | Proposed

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Wait, you're making an assumption or you have some info I haven't heard before.

Is it true that the PMB tolls will recover 100% of the project cost? Or are the tolls only meant to recover the 30% portion that was the bridge?

Same for the Massey Bridge - we don't know whether the tolls will pay for the entire corridor improvements, or just the bridge itself. You're assuming the tolls will pay for everything, but we haven't been told that.

Just look at the minimum numbers:

120,000 crossings (the current crossing counts are higher)
$3 per crossing (remember, $3 is only cars, trucks and such pay more so this is low)

120,000 crossings per day x $3 = $360,000 per day.
$360,000 per day x 365 days per year = $131 million per year in tolls.

Multiply that over the 35 years they stated the tolls will be around for and you quickly get to $4.6 billion in tolls.

The bridge cost $820 million.

So what is that extra $3.78 billion collected going toward? Covering the entire financing for the gateway project, maintenance, and debt fees (interest).

So I think the numbers clearly show the cost for the entire Gateway project is being covered 100% by the tolls over the bridge. If it was just covering the bridge, the total years would be less than 35 or the tolls would be 1/4 what they are today.

Also like I said above, I am taking 120,000 crossings (which is less than today) @ $3 per crossing (which is not all crossings, many are trucks that pay 3 times that @ $9 per crossing). So the overall toll collection may end up being closer to $5 billion after 35 years.

This is from their original project website btw:

During the planning phase of the project, a number of options for the tolling system of the PMH1 Project were considered. This included an analysis of the possible use of a distance-based toll, where drivers are charged for the distance they travel. This is an alternative used to a point toll (like a toll booth) where drivers are charged when they cross a certain point, usually a bridge.

Following that analysis, a decision was made to use a point toll at the Port Mann Bridge. This decision is based on the fact that the bridge represents the single biggest component of the project (more than 50 per cent of the cost). The bridge is also primarily responsible for the current congestion and bridge users will therefore benefit the most from the project.

In addition, research indicates that a single point toll is the most effective means of maintaining efficiency and managing traffic. Tolling portions of the highway can have the effect of encouraging vehicles to leave the highway and use neighbourhood streets to avoid paying the toll.

- See more at: http://www.pmh1project.com/tolling/P....tKdwOgdk.dpuf

They are basically saying they considered distance based but decided being the bridge was the main focal point that they would just toll it and have that pay for the entire Gateway project. What I find interesting is they say it is "more than 50 per cent of the cost" yet after the final bills were figured out the project they said cost $3 billion total and the bridge $820 million. That sounds more like less than 1/3rd the total project cost. Long term interest and debt financing doesn't enter into the equation because the total cost has the same interest/debt financing applied to it so they nullify themselves out over the life of the debt.

Yes it can be argued maintenance on the bridge is probably overall higher than highway maintenance, but I still don't think that accounts for $3.78 billion extra funding. If it does, then damn I'm in the wrong business and need to open up a bridge maintenance company.

*shrug*

Trust me, the bridge crosses are paying the full cost of the entire project.

[SFUVancouver]

Don't forget financing costs for the bridge and highway connections.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Don't forget financing costs for the bridge and highway connections.

So what is that extra $3.78 billion collected going toward? Covering the entire financing for the gateway project, maintenance, and debt fees (interest).

Included in my point.

Still financing for the bridge != $3.78 billion.

[makr3trkr]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Included in my point.

Still financing for the bridge != $3.78 billion.

Even if they just financed the bridge + Cape Horn it's nowhere near half of the long term cost of the project.

You also have people coming from Langley and beyond exiting at 176 or 104 taking the Pattullo, who are enjoying the benefits of expansion from four lanes to eight lanes.

People are going to avoid tolling whether it's bridge-based or distance-based, but at least with distance-based they have the sense that it's equitable.

There will certainly be people going from White Rock --> New West or Richmond --> Vancouver who will use the upgraded 99 and never see a bill.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Included in my point.

Still financing for the bridge != $3.78 billion.

Opps! Missed that. Sorry.

[The_Henry_Man]

I was going back home in Richmond (Richmond Centre area) from Splashdown Park in Tsawwassen yesterday through the GMT northbound at around 4:20pm. This is absolutely a national embarrassment, to have a major artery in the 3rd biggest metro area in Canada going from 6 lanes merging into 1 lane in GMT because of the counterflow lane being opened for southbound traffic. The entire trip took about 45-50min, with 30-35min being stuck at the 99/17A interchange going into the tunnel whereas it took only 20min to make this same trip without significant traffic. I'm absolutely convinced that the new GMT replacement needs to be 10 lanes (or at the absolute minimum 8 lanes with room for widening to 10). Having the bridge at 8 lanes is inadequate in solving any traffic woes because all you're building is an extra HOV lane and we all know that even the current 3 lane arrangement southbound during the afternoon rush hour still produces horrible traffic backups from the tunnel all the way to Westminster Hwy interchange.

[Genauso]

Hopefully the Oak St bridge gets an upgrade, alternative, or replacement

Two giant potholes are in the southbound lanes. Every winter for the last handful of years the Oak St bridge has these problems, in part due to heavy traffic and in part due to being low above the ocean. It's not as bad as last winter yet, but it's early and repairs take too long in a way that's never a problem for infrastructure east of Boundary Rd. It's only two lanes each way for the most important intercity highway of the region, it can't handle losing one lane.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I was going back home in Richmond (Richmond Centre area) from Splashdown Park in Tsawwassen yesterday through the GMT northbound at around 4:20pm. This is absolutely a national embarrassment, to have a major artery in the 3rd biggest metro area in Canada going from 6 lanes merging into 1 lane in GMT because of the counterflow lane being opened for southbound traffic. The entire trip took about 45-50min, with 30-35min being stuck at the 99/17A interchange going into the tunnel whereas it took only 20min to make this same trip without significant traffic. I'm absolutely convinced that the new GMT replacement needs to be 10 lanes (or at the absolute minimum 8 lanes with room for widening to 10). Having the bridge at 8 lanes is inadequate in solving any traffic woes because all you're building is an extra HOV lane and we all know that even the current 3 lane arrangement southbound during the afternoon rush hour still produces horrible traffic backups from the tunnel all the way to Westminster Hwy interchange.

I once experienced that, too, and it sucks.
Vancouver in the late 50s, early sixties was never envisioned the second-tier, but respectably populated (2.5m) metro region it is now,
and plans were made for that time. There seemed a total inability to "think big" (except the Granville Bridge perhaps) and now that we're thinking "big" (Port Mann, Cape Horn ...)
many people are very pleased while many people seem abhorred on what they see as the encroachment and strangulation of the city by superhighways. They're often phobic of anything with on or off ramps, more than four lanes wide.

The new George Massey crossing will have do be "done big" in whatever way that will be.

[Procrastinational]

The absolute worst is getting off the 5 pm sailing from Victoria and trying to get through the tunnel northbound. Not only does it condense down to one lane, but you get most of the ferry traffic trying to pass through as well.
I've had trips where it has taken about 90 mins to go from the ferry terminal in Tsawassen to the Steveston Highway exit on 99.

[SOSS]

Too bad you couldn't just take a passenger ferry from Victoria to Vancouver.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by SOSS

Too bad you couldn't just take a passenger ferry from Victoria to Vancouver.

Sometimes I wonder how much that would actually help traffic. It would certainly cut down on the foot traffic between Victoria and Tsawassen, but prices are already high enough that the only people bringing cars on the ferry are the ones who actually need them.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

Sometimes I wonder how much that would actually help traffic. It would certainly cut down on the foot traffic between Victoria and Tsawassen, but prices are already high enough that the only people bringing cars on the ferry are the ones who actually need them.

I'm sure some rental car companies could fill that gap.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by SOSS

I'm sure some rental car companies could fill that gap.

Maybe, but a lot of the time the cost of renting a car for a weekend can nearly cover the cost of taking a car onto the ferry in the first place. If the prices were anywhere near comparable, I'd much rather be in my own car then some tiny econobox rental car.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by SOSS

I'm sure some rental car companies could fill that gap.

Zipcar, I'm sure there are others.

Also Uber

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Zipcar, I'm sure there are others.

Also Uber

There are the traditional rental outfits like Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Thrifty's, Avis, Budget, Hertz and National. Then there are the less traditional outfits like Zipcar, Modo, car2go.

I'm a big believer in 'if you build it, it will get used'. Passenger ferry from DT Vancouver to DT Victoria would be well used and spawn additional businesses especially on the island. I personally would love to take my family to Victoria but have zero desire to drive there. What's my option... take public transit to one of the ferry terminals. It would take me 1 hour to get downtown from where I live but take over 2 hours to get to Horseshoe Bay or nearly 2.5 hours to get to Tsawwassen. The catchment area for downtown Vancouver is massive and convenient compared to the catchment areas and convenience of Horseshoe Bay and Tsawwassen.

I digress, this is not the tread for this conversation.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Genauso

Hopefully the Oak St bridge gets an upgrade, alternative, or replacement.

If there would be a be a paraller bridge connecting to Cambie Street, I think the current 2+2 Oak Street Bridge would be okay for long time to go. Adding more lanes on the bridge will only move the problem onwards to Oak Street, which cannot be widened. That's why more of the arterial streets should have their own bridge connection.

Knight Street bridge should definitely be 3+3 lanes (if not even 4+4 to help merging and public transit). It is actually quite wide bridge structure and perhaps could be widened without too much extra work / cost?

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I was going back home in Richmond (Richmond Centre area) from Splashdown Park in Tsawwassen yesterday through the GMT northbound at around 4:20pm. This is absolutely a national embarrassment, to have a major artery in the 3rd biggest metro area in Canada going from 6 lanes merging into 1 lane in GMT because of the counterflow lane being opened for southbound traffic. The entire trip took about 45-50min, with 30-35min being stuck at the 99/17A interchange going into the tunnel whereas it took only 20min to make this same trip without significant traffic. I'm absolutely convinced that the new GMT replacement needs to be 10 lanes (or at the absolute minimum 8 lanes with room for widening to 10). Having the bridge at 8 lanes is inadequate in solving any traffic woes because all you're building is an extra HOV lane and we all know that even the current 3 lane arrangement southbound during the afternoon rush hour still produces horrible traffic backups from the tunnel all the way to Westminster Hwy interchange.

When my brother moved to South Surrey I visited him once and never again because it took 2.5 hours to get there from the north shore.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by SOSS

I'm a big believer in 'if you build it, it will get used'. Passenger ferry from DT Vancouver to DT Victoria would be well used and spawn additional businesses especially on the island.

We need a thread for this.. but it's been tried, at least twice I can think of.. and it failed miserably.

[Klazu]

Maybe it has been mentioned earlier, but the signs along HWY99 are stating that "buildings STARTS in 2017". I wonder what that optimism is based on?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Maybe it has been mentioned earlier, but the signs along HWY99 are stating that "buildings STARTS in 2017". I wonder what that optimism is based on?

The premier promised that date before the election.

Somebody should start a Bill Vanderzalm style petition to have a referendum on the new bridge...