AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[ATXboom]

Originally Posted by atxsnail

An utterly despicable but pretty predictable action on the part of these people. I take great comfort in knowing that these ANC/CNC folks are only the most hardcore of NIMBYs. They are extremists and while they've traditionally enjoyed local political power, their influence is dwindling. (So too, are their actual numbers, though it feels wrong to celebrate "aging out.")

As evidenced by the results of the last council/mayoral election, NIMBY influence is at its lowest when turnout is good. Fortunately for us, turnout is expected to be huge in Nov when Project Connect will be on the ballot.

Change happens one death at a time... The politics of Austin should be considerably different in 10-20 yrs.

[chinchaaa]

Originally Posted by ATXboom

Change happens one death at a time... The politics of Austin should be considerably different in 10-20 yrs.

we can't wait 20 years for these idiots to die off to build out accessible transportation. if project connect loses, i will seriously look into leaving the city. i love austin, but it's so frustrating seeing the direction it is going.

[ATXboom]

Originally Posted by chinchaaa

we can't wait 20 years for these idiots to die off to build out accessible transportation. if project connect loses, i will seriously look into leaving the city. i love austin, but it's so frustrating seeing the direction it is going.

Emotionally agree but holding out hope. Only the uber minority squeaky wheels are being heard now. The majority will have their moment.

[urbancore]

Originally Posted by ATXboom

Emotionally agree but holding out hope. Only the uber minority squeaky wheels are being heard now. The majority will have their moment.

Ok ATXBoomer........ Actually, I hope you are right....but I think there is always a small minority who feel like they know best, and love to bitch, they are contrarians.....whatever you want to do....no matter what it is, they know better.

You know these people, their big contribution to conversations at a party or at work, is "well that doesn't happen to everyone", or "that's not always the case".....yeah no shit. As long as those people exist.....council will listen to them.

Getting the council members to tell them to "pound sand" is the solution.

[ATXboom]

Originally Posted by urbancore

Ok ATXBoomer........

FU.....K... I am so not a boomer. Now I need to change my moniker

[electricron]

Originally Posted by chinchaaa

we can't wait 20 years for these idiots to die off to build out accessible transportation. if project connect loses, i will seriously look into leaving the city. i love austin, but it's so frustrating seeing the direction it is going.

Austin's CapMetro has the cheapest fares within the state, and you do not think it is low enough for accessibility?
Just a reminder of the various bus fares within the state:
Austin $1.25 per trip, $2,50 per day pass
Houston $1.25 per trip, $3 per day pass
San Antonio $1.30 per trip, $2.75 per day pass
El Paso $1.50 per trip, $3.50 per day pass
Fort Worth $2 per trip, $5 per day pass
Dallas $2.50 per trip, $6 per day pass

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

Austin's CapMetro has the cheapest fares within the state, and you do not think it is low enough for accessibility?
Just a reminder of the various bus fares within the state:
Austin $1.25 per trip, $2,50 per day pass
Houston $1.25 per trip, $3 per day pass
San Antonio $1.30 per trip, $2.75 per day pass
El Paso $1.50 per trip, $3.50 per day pass
Fort Worth $2 per trip, $5 per day pass
Dallas $2.50 per trip, $6 per day pass

There's a lot more to "accessibility" than just the cost of fares.

Buses that get stuck in traffic and take 4-5X the time of driving aren't as accessible.

CapMetro being forced to cut routes and areas previously serviced (because buses caught in traffic are a lot more expensive) aren't as accessible.

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by electricron

Austin's CapMetro has the cheapest fares within the state, and you do not think it is low enough for accessibility?
Just a reminder of the various bus fares within the state:
Austin $1.25 per trip, $2,50 per day pass
Houston $1.25 per trip, $3 per day pass
San Antonio $1.30 per trip, $2.75 per day pass
El Paso $1.50 per trip, $3.50 per day pass
Fort Worth $2 per trip, $5 per day pass
Dallas $2.50 per trip, $6 per day pass

I don't think OP was making a comment on price, though this is pretty illuminating info anyway.

I wonder if all the other cities also have the local/commuter split in fares. It looks like CapMetro's ($7) is cheaper than DART's regional day pass ($12) by a lot, but the DART fare covers a lot more ground. Austin's cost comes in the middle of Houston METRO's park & ride stuff.

The most irritating thing about transit is how complicated some fare systems are. Even as a well-educated and motivated transit enthusiast it can often be a big headache to figure out how to ride an unfamiliar system. That's probably the biggest reason the average person doesn't even bother to learn and just uses Uber/Lyft. Even hailing taxis in different markets has a learning curve.

[zrx299]

It's the same bunch of crusty aging hippies who relentlessly pine for the small college town Austin of 1977.

It's getting very old for the rest of us who have to put up with the fallout from their selfishness for lack of transit and proper zoning.

[urbancore]

Originally Posted by zrx299

It's the same bunch of crusty aging hippies who relentlessly pine for the small college town Austin of 1977.

It's getting very old for the rest of us who have to put up with the fallout from their selfishness for lack of transit and proper zoning.

BINGO>>>BANGO

Precisely......my parents are the embodiment of these people. Problem is, they introduced me to George Carlin.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTZ-CpINiqg

[citykid09]

I think it’s cool that the city leaders in Austin (unlike a near by city), are thinking big when it comes the transit. They are not going to settle for Bus Rapid Transit or street level Light Rail through the downtown area. They are thinking full on subway.

“We can go small and fail or we can make the right investment for the future of our city,” council member Jimmy Flannigan said. “We’re talking about rail in a tunnel. That’s a subway. I mean, wow. That’s what real cities do.”

I think that is the correct choice for a city like Austin. Do not look at Houston or San Antonio for inspiration, if you are going to look at a Texas city look at Dallas but you should really draw inspiration from rail systems like DC Metro.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kxa...wn-subway/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kxa...wn-subway/amp/

[electricron]

Originally Posted by citykid09

I think it’s cool that the city leaders in Austin (unlike a near by city), are thinking big when it comes the transit. They are not going to settle for Bus Rapid Transit or street level Light Rail through the downtown area. They are thinking full on subway.


I think that is the correct choice for a city like Austin. Do not look at Houston or San Antonio for inspiration, if you are going to look at a Texas city look at Dallas but you should really draw inspiration from rail systems like DC Metro.

DC Metro, Bay Area BART, Miami Metrorail, LA Metro are post WW2 heavy rail systems built in the US all have commuter rail trains, the only post WW2 heavy rail system in the US without commuter rail or light rail lines is Atlanta's MARTA which desperately is seeking other than heavy rail lines for future expansion. I do not agree a heavy rail transit system is best for Austin. There are many valid reasons so many cities since the 1980s have chosen light rail systems.
The sole exception in the USA is Honolulu, which decided to install a lighter version of a heavy rail system (like Vancouver's Skytrain). HART is way over budget and way late. Initial cost estimates for the single line was $5.3 Billion, with the FTA contributing $1.55 Billion, the latest estimated cost is over $9 Billion. The FTA contribution has not been raised by even a penny, so the local taxpayers share was around $3.75 Billion is now estimated to be $7.45 Billion. FYI, the almost entirely elevated Honolulu Rail line is just 20 miles in length, with an average now of $450 Million per mile. Even at the initial estimated costs, the HART line average $265 Million per mile.
A similar system in Austin should not cost as much, but no where as low as the $59 Million per mile average by Dallas' DART ($5.5 Billion for 93 miles) or $69 Million per mile by Houston's Metro (1.6 Billion for 23 miles). That's why light rail and commuter rail are the better choices, they are much, much cheaper to build.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by electricron

DC Metro, Bay Area BART, Miami Metrorail, LA Metro are post WW2 heavy rail systems built in the US all have commuter rail trains, the only post WW2 heavy rail system in the US without commuter rail or light rail lines is Atlanta's MARTA which desperately is seeking other than heavy rail lines for future expansion. I do not agree a heavy rail transit system is best for Austin. There are many valid reasons so many cities since the 1980s have chosen light rail systems.
The sole exception in the USA is Honolulu, which decided to install a lighter version of a heavy rail system (like Vancouver's Skytrain). HART is way over budget and way late. Initial cost estimates for the single line was $5.3 Billion, with the FTA contributing $1.55 Billion, the latest estimated cost is over $9 Billion. The FTA contribution has not been raised by even a penny, so the local taxpayers share was around $3.75 Billion is now estimated to be $7.45 Billion. FYI, the almost entirely elevated Honolulu Rail line is just 20 miles in length, with an average now of $450 Million per mile. Even at the initial estimated costs, the HART line average $265 Million per mile.
A similar system in Austin should not cost as much, but no where as low as the $59 Million per mile average by Dallas' DART ($5.5 Billion for 93 miles) or $69 Million per mile by Houston's Metro (1.6 Billion for 23 miles). That's why light rail and commuter rail are the better choices, they are much, much cheaper to build.

There is no talk of heavy rail in Austin. The proposal is for light rail (or BRT, although that option is not getting much support), with potentially a short tunnel section Downtown. There may be some additional elevated sections, but the majority will be surface running, much like DART.

[StoOgE]

Originally Posted by zrx299

It's the same bunch of crusty aging hippies who relentlessly pine for the small college town Austin of 1977.

It's getting very old for the rest of us who have to put up with the fallout from their selfishness for lack of transit and proper zoning.

And 80% of them moved here in the 90s and are still pining for 'old Austin'

I remember the joke from the early 2000s. Austin was at its best 5 years before the person talking moved here.

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by citykid09

Do not look at Houston or San Antonio for inspiration, if you are going to look at a Texas city look at Dallas but you should really draw inspiration from rail systems like DC Metro.

Out of curiosity, why do you mention Dallas' rail system as a model? To me, it's such a commuter/suburban oriented system that it's not very useful within the city itself. Admittedly, I don't live there so I'm not familiar with the daily routines of DART riders. But to me that system looks like it only exists to get suburbanites between their jobs and park & rides and that's it.

The coverage map looks nice from far away though.

I much prefer a more compact system that is designed to serve a full spectrum of needs: work commute, retail and grocery shopping, parks and recreation, dining out and entertainment. It's not cost effective to build frequent service out to the outlying areas. Tech Ridge, Southpark Meadows, and the Airport are as far as I'd ever vote to extend the proposed LRT lines.

I'm guessing the Red Line expansion (which I favor) and the Green Line are kind of approaching the Dallas model? I'm not convinced we need the Green Line yet, but I'm not quite as adamantly opposed to it as some others are. I would just prefer it to be primarily regionally funded.

I doubt we'll ever get rail to southern suburbs like Kyle and Buda. But when we get Mopac South toll lanes, express buses will do really well.

[papertowelroll]

Originally Posted by citykid09

I think it’s cool that the city leaders in Austin (unlike a near by city), are thinking big when it comes the transit. They are not going to settle for Bus Rapid Transit or street level Light Rail through the downtown area. They are thinking full on subway.


I think that is the correct choice for a city like Austin. Do not look at Houston or San Antonio for inspiration, if you are going to look at a Texas city look at Dallas but you should really draw inspiration from rail systems like DC Metro.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kxa...wn-subway/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kxa...wn-subway/amp/

At this point Houston has better transit than us, so I don't think it's fair to knock them. If project connect happens, I do think Austin would suddenly have one of the best systems for a city this size. Hopefully this thing passes!

[papertowelroll]

Originally Posted by atxsnail

Out of curiosity, why do you mention Dallas' rail system as a model? To me, it's such a commuter/suburban oriented system that it's not very useful within the city itself. Admittedly, I don't live there so I'm not familiar with the daily routines of DART riders. But to me that system looks like it only exists to get suburbanites between their jobs and park & rides and that's it.

The coverage map looks nice from far away though.

I much prefer a more compact system that is designed to serve a full spectrum of needs: work commute, retail and grocery shopping, parks and recreation, dining out and entertainment. It's not cost effective to build frequent service out to the outlying areas. Tech Ridge, Southpark Meadows, and the Airport are as far as I'd ever vote to extend the proposed LRT lines.

I'm guessing the Red Line expansion (which I favor) and the Green Line are kind of approaching the Dallas model? I'm not convinced we need the Green Line yet, but I'm not quite as adamantly opposed to it as some others are. I would just prefer it to be primarily regionally funded.

I doubt we'll ever get rail to southern suburbs like Kyle and Buda. But when we get Mopac South toll lanes, express buses will do really well.

I think this is a downside of all the annexation Austin did. We can't really propose a system that ignores the suburban areas or it will be guaranteed not to pass. I think project connect is smartly designed; it offers parks and rides for both north and south suburbs to go with with a pretty good set of stops within the city core. If this happens along with double tracking the red line and increased bus frequency, Austin could be looking pretty good from a transit perspective.

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by papertowelroll

I think this is a downside of all the annexation Austin did. We can't really propose a system that ignores the suburban areas or it will be guaranteed not to pass. I think project connect is smartly designed; it offers parks and rides for both north and south suburbs to go with with a pretty good set of stops within the city core. If this happens along with double tracking the red line and increased bus frequency, Austin could be looking pretty good from a transit perspective.

We still have no idea when the Orange Line will extend to Tech Ridge, however. I know there's the unfortunate issue of having to coordinate with TXDoT for Lamar north of 183 but there are some serious equity issues in having the line stop there instead of pushing all the way to Tech Ridge from the beginning. There are a lot of transit riders between 183 and Braker that should be included.

Plus NLTC isn't really a good park and ride for northern suburbanites.

[papertowelroll]

Originally Posted by atxsnail

We still have no idea when the Orange Line will extend to Tech Ridge, however. I know there's the unfortunate issue of having to coordinate with TXDoT for Lamar north of 183 but there are some serious equity issues in having the line stop there instead of pushing all the way to Tech Ridge from the beginning. There are a lot of transit riders between 183 and Braker that should be included.

Plus NLTC isn't really a good park and ride for northern suburbanites.

Well, NW Austin is already served pretty well by Lakeline Station, which has the red line + express buses downtown. My hope is that Austinites in that corner will see this plan as substantially increasing the utility of the red line by adding useful connections.

[nixcity]

Well, NW Austin is already served pretty well by Lakeline Station, which has the red line + express buses downtown. My hope is that Austinites in that corner will see this plan as substantially increasing the utility of the red line by adding useful connections.

Agreed, but I think atxsnail is primarily referring to the large population of transit dependent people that live along that stretch of Lamar.