GO/VIA Transit

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

Railway management from the 19th Century that we're still stuck with, for certain. But the entire mode? There's no better alternative. You've seen what cars do to a city

Trains are sick. Anyone who has travelled Europe or Asia in any amount would know that trains only suck here. A big issue is that were stuck at such slow speeds. If we could get electric all the way down the line, you could be in Toronto from West Harbour in less than an hour.

The other major issue is cost. I was recently looking at tickets for Via to Montreal and saw the price and thought there's no way someone would choose this over driving which is so cheap. But then I did some math on the actual cost to drive to and from Montreal, and it was actually quite comparable if my car isn't filled with 4 or 5 people. People don't compare apples to apples, they always just include cost of gas.

I suspect as the price of gas increases (which it should anyway based on it's environment impact) people will start to choose other modes more often. If we used tolls as we should on certain roads, then we would really improve transit ridership. Especially in Hamilton where we have municipal highways, our downtown should be a slog to try to drive through and the ring road system being much easier, and people should pay a small toll for using the municipal highways (more like American tolls, less like 407 tolls).

[ScreamingViking]

We've also prioritized freight on most corridors, and CN and CP have the political and economic clout to ensure that does not easily change.

Even when those companies were offering passenger service decades ago, it was an afterthought.

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

Trains are sick. Anyone who has travelled Europe or Asia in any amount would know that trains only suck here. A big issue is that were stuck at such slow speeds. If we could get electric all the way down the line, you could be in Toronto from West Harbour in less than an hour.

The other major issue is cost. I was recently looking at tickets for Via to Montreal and saw the price and thought there's no way someone would choose this over driving which is so cheap. But then I did some math on the actual cost to drive to and from Montreal, and it was actually quite comparable if my car isn't filled with 4 or 5 people. People don't compare apples to apples, they always just include cost of gas.

I suspect as the price of gas increases (which it should anyway based on it's environment impact) people will start to choose other modes more often. If we used tolls as we should on certain roads, then we would really improve transit ridership. Especially in Hamilton where we have municipal highways, our downtown should be a slog to try to drive through and the ring road system being much easier, and people should pay a small toll for using the municipal highways (more like American tolls, less like 407 tolls).

[King&James]

More trains coming to Downtown and West Harbour (from Joey Coleman Twitter)

https://twitter.com/JoeyColeman/stat...gqIpm2Znw&s=19

[matt602]

Originally Posted by King&James

More trains coming to Downtown and West Harbour (from Joey Coleman Twitter)

https://twitter.com/JoeyColeman/stat...gqIpm2Znw&s=19

Looks like its just the resumption of the pre-covid service to me? The 4 in/4 out at Hunter Street plus resuming Niagara Falls rush hour service.

[King&James]

Originally Posted by matt602

Looks like its just the resumption of the pre-covid service to me? The 4 in/4 out at Hunter Street plus resuming Niagara Falls rush hour service.

Agreed, glad it is back in downtown, are there three extra at west Harbour also resumption ones ?

[craftbeerdad]

It's the resumption of 4/4 both ways in rush hour into/out of Hunter St. Does seem like the times are slightly different on the Hamilton (westbound afternoon) arrivals by 10 minutes, but that's not a big deal

[TheRitsman]

I know there was at least one train into Hunter last Friday when I was on my way home from Your to, unless that's a train to Aldershot then transfer to Go bus, but it didn't seem like it based on the time getting to Hamilton Go Centre

[Innsertnamehere]

Pre pandemic it was 4 at hunter and 4 at west harbour, all express. West harbour is still local service so we are still down 4 express trains officially.

Hunter had the 4 trains running already before this change but they were local trains not express.

[JoeyColeman]

The West Harbour has one express morning/afternoon, it is now on the Niagara-Toronto schedule not Lakeshore West schedule.
They've added three earlier trains from West Harbour on weekends.
It is quite the expansion.
In terms of peak capacity (ie the other three West Harbour expresses), I do not expect we'll see them return for years. They are not needed.
Overall, we're seeing a significant increase in service. The WH hourly is proving to be very popular, I think it is exceeding everyones expectations.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by JoeyColeman

The West Harbour has one express morning/afternoon, it is now on the Niagara-Toronto schedule not Lakeshore West schedule.
They've added three earlier trains from West Harbour on weekends.
It is quite the expansion.
In terms of peak capacity (ie the other three West Harbour expresses), I do not expect we'll see them return for years. They are not needed.
Overall, we're seeing a significant increase in service. The WH hourly is proving to be very popular, I think it is exceeding everyones expectations.

Do we have any preliminary numbers so far? When I took it last Friday, it seemed to be quite busy. I have a friend coming from Toronto tomorrow entering Hamilton at 12:00 so I'll ask him how busy it is when he gets off.

[matt602]

I haven't taken the service yet myself though I will be next month into Toronto and possibly to Niagara Falls in the evening. I'm pretty excited about it. I took it back in 2019 to St. Catharines and I was surprised that the train was pretty full when I got off. I'm sure it will be even more popular now that theres so much more connecting service to the station.

[JoeyColeman]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

Do we have any preliminary numbers so far? When I took it last Friday, it seemed to be quite busy. I have a friend coming from Toronto tomorrow entering Hamilton at 12:00 so I'll ask him how busy it is when he gets off.

Not yet

[Bubba9000]

Found on Twitter: https://twitter.com/yfreemark/status...032713228?s=20

Toronto’s massive regional rail program—unparalleled in North America—is advancing, with bids now in for its plans to electrify 687 km of track & provide all-day 15 min or better service on five lines.

Referring to Dec.21 2021 update: https://blog.metrolinx.com/2021/12/2...ectric-trains/

GO Expansion set to electrify the region – With rapid all-day service and new electric trains
...This includes implementing overhead electrification, upgrading train control systems, and expanding tracks and structures along the corridors to allow for 6,000 weekly train trips. These infrastructure improvements will complement the billions of dollars of GO Expansion Early Works projects already underway or complete, as well as planned work renovating existing stations, building new stations and extending the GO rail network to places like Bowmanville in the future.

The contract is in a multi-year procurement process, and the bids closed on Nov. 30.

Two proponent teams, EnTransit and ONxpress Transportation Partners, have submitted their proposals.

[TheHonestMaple]

Will this include the lines both into West Harbour and the Hamilton Central station?

[TheRitsman]

Unfortunately this won't reach beyond Metrolinx owned tracks so Burlington Go will be the end of electrified rail along Lakeshore West. Should speed the trip up significantly from Hamilton regardless. I think I read time from Burlington is aimed to be 45 minutes, so that means a 1 hour ride from West Harbour to Union which would make Hamilton a significantly more attractive place to live, work, and visit.

[TheHonestMaple]

So it will still have a diesel engine for the whole route? Sorry, I don't know much about the project. Also, why would electrification be any faster? The trains are already technically electric, with a diesel generator.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

So it will still have a diesel engine for the whole route? Sorry, I don't know much about the project. Also, why would electrification be any faster? The trains are already technically electric, with a diesel generator.

I had the exact same question! Yes there will still be a diesel locomotive.

In the current configuration the diesel locomotive pulls all the cab cars behind it (or pushes them). The cab cars where people sit are essentially in "neutral" coasting behind or in front of the locomotive. Electrification allows for the cab cars to be fitted with electric motors on each. This provides an immense increase in the power and spread of the friction to the train. Now each car essentially becomes a sort of locomotive, and the actually locomotive no longer needs to push or pull like 10 multiple tonne cab cars as they each can start and stop via their own power. This speeds up acceleration and also improves braking capability potentially.

This is how they will improve the speeds with electrification despite still having a diesel locomotive at the front.

[TheHonestMaple]

thanks!

[Innsertnamehere]

That’s not right.

GO will operate a mix of dual mode, electric, and diesel locomotives as well as a fleet of EMUs. EMUs are what you describe which involves power coming from each car, and these will be used for the off peak 15 minute services on the electrified parts of lines. If you have ever ridden the UPx, those trains are DMUs (diesel multiple units), and don’t have a locomotive as each car provides its own power, to give you an idea as to what they will look like. Electric locomotives pulling “dead” cabs will also operate peak services with larger, slower (though still faster than diesel) trains.

Services on the non electrified parts of corridors will run with a mix of dual mode (electric and diesel) and diesel locomotive services, and Metrolinx hasn’t specified specifically what lines will be what for this.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

That’s not right.

GO will operate a mix of dual mode, electric, and diesel locomotives as well as a fleet of EMUs. EMUs are what you describe which involves power coming from each car, and these will be used for the off peak 15 minute services on the electrified parts of lines. If you have ever ridden the UPx, those trains are DMUs (diesel multiple units), and don’t have a locomotive as each car provides its own power, to give you an idea as to what they will look like. Electric locomotives pulling “dead” cabs will also operate peak services with larger, slower (though still faster than diesel) trains.

Services on the non electrified parts of corridors will run with a mix of dual mode (electric and diesel) and diesel locomotive services, and Metrolinx hasn’t specified specifically what lines will be what for this.

I don't think all that has actually been figured out yet. I haven't seen anything that has given that level of specifics. All I know it that they will not have Diesel trains sitting at Burlington waiting for electric trains to transfer passengers, which means the trains will have a mix of diesel locomotive and electrified cabs.

That's kind of the point of this entire process is how it will all work. They have suggested speed improvements on every line from my knowledge so I don't believe they'll be using dead cabs on any line as that wouldn't allow for improved speed or time. They haven't even decided what kind of trains will be used fully from my knowledge.

The way the improvement in speed was described to me though was a result of the cabs being able to "pull" themselves. So it really has nothing to do with how they are fueled, but the fact that electrification will mean cheaper options to make the cabs propel themselves.

Just to confirm, I did a bit of reading, and seen here: https://www.metrolinx.com/en/electri.../electric.aspx the successful bidder will decide in part the best options.

The successful proponent team will be responsible for **selecting and delivering the right trains and infrastructure** to unlock the benefits of GO Expansion. The contract is in a multi-year procurement process, and currently teams are completing the bids that will close in 2021. Construction will get underway in 2022/3.